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Post by fantasykiger on Aug 14, 2009 10:59:54 GMT -5
I do not know the answer to the snaffle with wolf teeth I always have them removed when they get their first dental work done as fillies at the age of 2 or if they are present during gelding I have them removed then.
I do how ever have a gelding here with very large canine teeth, I would think would be more of an issue then some wolf teeth but they do not bother him in a mild snaffle.
Just so you know my daughter had a simulare experience with Cleo' we start out with lots of ground training, then riding Cleo bareback at the end of lunge line. She did send her off for 30 days to just get the basics under a professional trainer. When Cleo' returned my daughter started trail riding her. On the third trail ride Cleo' tripped on a rock and spooked her reaction was to start rodeo style bucking, she dumped my daughter and high tailed it all the way home, just left us behind. After hitting the ground and luckly not getting hurt to bad then concern that Cleo might not find her way back home or get hit by a car, come hurt that she did not even care to stay with my daughter. A neighbor caught Cleo' and put her in our pasture. My daughter was at a place just gettign out of highschool and headed to college she could not afford to send her back to a trainer and to afraid to get back on. So Cleo' went back out ot pasture for another year and half until Whitney finished college got a job and had the money to send her back into training. The last time she rode Cleo' out on the trail before Cleo' was hurt we were cantering down the trail it was so much fun. So if you have to wait for awhile it is OK ...Firefly will be there waiting for you that is all that is inportant, that she is still in your life to brighten your day.
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Post by kigerfan on Aug 14, 2009 18:02:42 GMT -5
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Post by lindad on Aug 14, 2009 19:47:04 GMT -5
You really should have a rear cinch on the saddle. With only the front cinch once she commenced to buckin' you didn't stand a chance. That is why the back cinch is called the buck strap. It really helps to balance the saddle, and keeps it from lifting in the back. It should be just snug enough to contact the horse's belly without being tight. With your bad back you may lean forward in the saddle causing it to lift in the back.
Have someone that knows how to fit a saddle check it. Chances are good that it may not be wide enough and pinching her. I know this because she is built like her mother. A quality saddle pad may also help, but has to be selected with the fit of the saddle in mind. I'd almost bet, that the saddle has something to do with it. I think most problems I have had with horses has been due to a lousy saddle/fit!
I notice she has sleepy eyes in all of the pictures. Maybe she just didn't feel well. Was she in season? Spring can be marish when in season, and it is hot.
I sure hope that you don't get too discouraged before you unravel this mystery. You have such a bond that I bet once you figure this out she will be wonderful for you.
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Post by dazzlingduns on Aug 14, 2009 20:22:24 GMT -5
I most certainly can not determine why your mare bucked you off, but my advice would be a better choice of attire for riding. I would suggest wearing boots with a heel for safety purposes. Tennis shoes are not designed for horse riding, neither are shorts. You need protection. You might want to consider wearing a good riding helmet until you and your horse work through this conflict or misunderstanding.
Melissa
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Post by kigerfan on Aug 14, 2009 20:26:49 GMT -5
I'm not really a green rider, I've ridden off and on all my life. I've just never had a green horse before. I started with her being wild, I gentled her and have done actually very well with her until this incident. I normally ride her in jeans but this was to be a short ride, though not as short as it ended up being.
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Post by dazzlingduns on Aug 14, 2009 20:38:41 GMT -5
I removed that statement about you and your horse being green from my previous message. I know many people who have ridden horses all their lives and are still and always will be considered green. Not being harsh at all, just truthful from what I have seen and read from many of your messages posted. You should be proud that you gentled this mare. Mares are quite difficult. I know because I have one and would never adopt another from the wild. I'm not a mare person. Not saying mares from the wild are bad at all, but can be very complex at times and can require a more seasoned horseman.
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Post by kigerfan on Aug 14, 2009 20:47:04 GMT -5
I want to get her some professional training because I know I'm over my head, I just want to also understand what made her do what she did. She's very attached to me. She's normally very good to me, I've ridden her with only a lead rope. I'll attach a vid of that.  I am by far no trainer but I feel very proud of how far I've actually gotten with her. She trusts me to do a lot of things with her |
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Post by dazzlingduns on Aug 14, 2009 21:38:31 GMT -5
It is a great idea to seek professional help for your mare. You would also benefit from professional help. Have you set any goals for yourself and your horse?
Melissa
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Post by kigerfan on Aug 14, 2009 21:47:38 GMT -5
I'm a pleasure rider, I love being out and sharing the ride with my horse. I don't have any lofty goals for her, quite honestly my back couldn't take it. I know she could be a wonderful show horse and all that but she's just a part of my family and a partner for riding basically. I would love for a professional trainer to teach me how to train her to do the things I want of her. I hired a 'professional trainer' at one point and he ticked me off so bad I told him to get lost. I just need someone to help me along.
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Post by DianneC on Aug 14, 2009 22:50:38 GMT -5
I had a trainer come and work once a week with Chinny and Cedar when I got started. I loved it. They worked with the horses and watched while I did what they did and then that was my homework for the week. I'm glad to hear that you told one trainer to get lost. I think we all have horror stories. Seems like some trainers hear the word mustang and reach for the harshest tools they have. To be frank, I'm not sure a good QH trainer would be the best with a mustang. They are very different mentally in my opinion. Although great trainers are great trainers, there are also a lot of not-so-great ones. Maybe a friend can recommend some one.
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Post by vaquerotraditions on Aug 15, 2009 2:02:50 GMT -5
Thank you for posting the pics and being open to ideas and suggestions. I do have a a few things to share and I would like to apologize now if my words come across a lil harsher than would seem needed. I do that where safety of people or horses is concerned because it is more likley to be remembered. Well the first thing that catches my eye with your gear is that the mecate appears to be very tight on the jaw, at least one too many wraps. With it in that position it is going to take holt with the slightest movement of your hands and will not give any warning. I know there are some who prefer it that way, as that is what works for them but since you are asking for opinions I would say undo your mecate, and leave enough space for two fingers (up and down) between the wraps of the mecate and the bottom of her jaw. At the early stages of hackamore training a horse needs to feel it coming and start to give to the signal before any significant amount of pressure comes to bear on the nerves in the jaw, jaw muscles, jaw bone, facial nerves etc. I only adjust one that tight on special occasions and then loosen it as soon as it is no longer needed. Another thing to be aware of is that a horse hair rope will not hold a horse if you tie with it, so dont actually use it to tie her up as it will break right at the wraps on the hackamore and you will have 2 pretty 11' ropes. Also, without a fiador on your hackamore, it will come right off her nose if she pulls back. There are a couple ways to tie a mecate so that it becomes a fiador as well, and good to know but still wont help if she spooks n pulls back and breaks your rope, which WILL happen if she pulls with any force at all. Regarding riding with a mecate, at this stage in your riding it should be tied up and not in hand when riding. If you dont have strings on your saddle then throw a couple half hitches on the horn or something as holding on to it in that manner will surely turn into a bad idea at some point. The thing to fear is accidentally getting tied to the horse and drug to death or dismemberment or both. One full wrap around your wrist or ankle as you get bucked off or bail and thats all she wrote, so please consider putting some coils in that thing and tying it up. The thing to be aware of with a mecate, or any lead rope is the length of the loop leading to the horses head. The horse needs freedom to be able to turn both ways fully without being limited by the mecate, but it should not be so low that the horse could acidentally step into it. If its tied off that loose and your horse steps into it, you could have what is known as a supreme buckoff. Its also very easy for limbs, rocks, other horses tails, head of a cow your working etc to get hung up in that loop of rope, so pay some mind to just how you do it up so its just how you want it. As a very minor note, the lead should hang straight down and not cross over the reins as it does in the pic. For riding young horses its best if you have your feet under you without danger of losing your pedals in a storm so I would also say to take up your stirrups two notches, or enough to get ur heels down and the weight on the balls of your feet. And another thought or two on riding gear. Riding in general and riding colts in particular can be very dangerous and is nothing to take for granted. We should always dress for the ride and occasion at hand and with colts you never really know what occasion to dress for so I try to error on the safety side of things. Shorts are out at this point in the game. I could tell you a great story about a friend who hopped on a colt wearing just shorts and flip flops  he got lucky it wasnt worse but we laughed for days. So a few new ideas come to me about the bucking incident now that Ive read these last posts. The hackamore is certainly in close enough contact to possibly be painful to her, and certainly would feel suprising since it is relatively new to her so that could of done it, yes. She woulda told you it was bothersome, but maybe she didnt say it loud enough to hear clearly. Another thought has not to do with gear so much but with mindset and mental preparedness to ride. You mentioned that you got on for a quick ride, didnt dress for it and likely didnt do all the things (or take all the time) you would normally do to get her ready. . . am I right? Well, maybe, just maybe that hastened mindset for a quick lil ride let you overlook some things she was telling you and caused you to take her for granted, especially since she has not bucked with you before. Is that a possibility? If so you certainly wouldnt be the first person to take a horse a lil for granted since "they hadnt bucked before, they are not gonna now. . ." FAMOUS LAST WORDS, LOL. Been there, done that and I didnt like it. Some positives to be congratulated on, that hackamore/mecate/hanger setup looks very nice on her. To me the saddle seems to fit fine, without a breast collar or back cinch they show you pretty quick if they dont fit well so you know its at least close to a good fit. Without those pieces the saddle will tip up or down with the horse at rest and maybe slide back or forward with any movement at all and youd likely know something was wrong by now. She looks quite at ease with you and you with her and the softness in your hands show that you have a nice feel of her nose which she will appreciate and is absolutley needed to make a good hackamore horse even above other methods While you are waiting to ride I would revisit all her groundwork and do it using the hackamore on her instead of a halter. Horses have to be taught how to respond to a a hackamore as it does not make sense to them the way it pushes the opposite side of their face towards something, they tend to resist that as they naturally lean into pressure. Enough of me for now. |
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Post by kigerfan on Aug 15, 2009 13:41:18 GMT -5
I love that post, thank you very much! Okay, she wasn't tied with the mecate, it was simply looped over the tree branch, It was just a place to put the mecate while I saddled her. I did my normal saddling proceedure. I thought after looking at the pictures that the macate might have been too tight. Thank you very much for verifying that. I generally don't ride her in shorts, in fact that was a first. Yes, I definitely believe I take her a bit for granted that she has been very gentle with me. I've ridden with that saddle before and she's given me no trouble or complaint with it. The only new thing was the mecate. I didn't find your words harsh at all. I can't learn if people don't talk to me. As far as a rider, though I've been riding for a long time, all my horses were well trained, the only wacky horse I had was an off the track thoroughbred but he and I got along just fine. He never threw me, even if he did buck once in a while, he did little bucks for fun that were more like little crowhops. So I can somewhat fall into the 'green' catagory. I'm very definitely green as a trainer, I checked this morning, I'm still wet behind the ears I am going to work much more on some ground work with her and watch her responses. I'm without a roundpen right now so I'm going to have to improvise something. I really do welcome all comments from all of you, it's very obvious to me that you have more experience than I do and I'd be silly not to see if I can glean something from that experience. Right now money is super tight, I don't have any extra in order to hire a trainer for her and I want to be able to find someone that is right, not cheap. She deserves it. I also want someone that will further my knowledge, not just hers. Keep the comments coming. I appreciate it very much. |
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Post by DianneC on Aug 15, 2009 16:14:41 GMT -5
That was a great post! That was one of the best written, easy to understand and kind but truthful advice I've ever read.
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Post by stlkigers on Aug 16, 2009 12:22:57 GMT -5
Vaquero Traditions....WONDERFUL post.....Very thoughtful and great advice....
Kigerfan, I salute you for asking for opinions....Your desire to learn for you and Firefly is awesome and inspiring...Not all people would open them up to advice on the web which can sometimes seem (whether meant to or not) more harsh than necessary.
Angela
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Post by mystickiger on Aug 16, 2009 22:05:44 GMT -5
Kigerfan, if I'm not mistaken your mare is at least 5 yrs old and you've had her for 2 or 3 years, correct? The video shows a nice supple, light relationship with a willing mare. That's a great start but not necessarily the same as riding. I really don't intend that to be mean at all but you are asking nothing of her. Accordingly, she has no reason to be anything but amenable, nothing to resist, nothing to frighten her, nothing to put her outside of her current comfort zone. Bareback & bridleless should be easy at this point as she trusts and knows the zone you've put her in thus far. I've reread your posts and can find nothing that explains what you were doing at the time she set into bucking. Were you standing still just mounted, walking , on the level, uphill, downhill, asking for the trot, asking for a bend, away from your normal comfort zone, is the saddle new to her? She certainly looks comfortable posing for her picture taking session but the answers to all of these are crucial to even begin guessing what might have happened. You've admitted that you don't consider yourself a green rider but do consider that you are green to training. That's really okay. Most of us either were or are to some degree. Nothing wrong with accepting that because it means that you're not an Evergreen! You want to learn and progress. Unfortunately, I think that you need a ground person to help you through this. Regardless of your skill level, most of us need that ground person. Heck, even the Olympic riders have a ground person and continuing education. These mares are strong, smart and know how to get what they want. They will lovingly chew you up and spit you out if you don't establish yourself as the leader. Trust me, sold ever gelding I've ever owned except my Kiger, Titan, of course so I am a mare person. Kiger mares tend to be dominant and smart. Don't let her dupe you! Make sure that you are confident with yourself and any asking. Also, make sure that things are very black and white in your asking. Even a confident mare can become frightened when "grey" is offered. Personally, I can't see how even the poorest of saddle fit should cause a reaction like that unless you were really riding hard (doubt it due to your attire and posts) and failed to heed several warnings the mare must have given. Explosive behavior like that doesn't just happen to a horse that is accustom to riding without warning except in the most extreme circumstances (like a nest of ground bees) which you did not mention.
You've received some good solid advice so far; at least some thoughts which will get your mind going. I know you said you did alot of research before going to the bosal but as a newbie to the hackamore please consider getting a fiador as previously suggested. It not only serves as a throatlatch, preventing the bosal from slipping off the muzzle, it also helps to stabilize the bosal, preventing accidental bumping.
Karen
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he got lucky it wasnt worse but we laughed for days. 
