Anyone seen these symptoms in a Kiger?

[prizmbluekigers]

Hi,

Evening is upon us and I can't get a vet here until maybe Monday. My 5 year old stallion ate a few bites of hay this morning and then layed down. He got back up in a couple of minutes and ate some more hay, but is not very interested in hay. He has been drinking some this afternoon. His respirations are about 12/min, good stomach sounds on both sides, pink gums, no nasal discharge or cough, pulse normal but temp is 102.
Colic always comes to mind first, but the temp makes me wonder if something is incubating.
y dog eared horse ailment book yielded nothing.

He continues to lay down for a few minutes and get back up with no thrashing, biting at sides, but he is very lethargic. He will lead easily and moves with no obvious sign of pain. I can find no wounds, he has not been anywhere but here and the other 3 horses are fine. The only other different thing is that he seems to grind his teeth and chew on nothing, but I about grabbed his tonsils and can't find anything foreign in his mouth. Can't be snake bite, no wild animals around, no marks , cuts, scrapes open wounds. I tried a bran mash and he ate a few bites. I think we have only one fresh manure pile all afternoon and I saw him pass urine about 5pm.

This is not typical for him. He always clowns around when I put a halter on him and treis to lead himself around by grabbing the lead rope in his mouth and after 5 years we know each other pretty well. I don't have enough to go on for an answer so I wondered if anyone has encounter similar non specific symptoms or if I should kick myself for not recognizing something obvious. He seemed fine yesterday evening, his ususal self. Guess I'll be on watch tonight, but if you have a thought, please post it and I will have hubby check the board.

Thanks,

Bobbe

[canadiankigers]

Bobbe:

Have you recently planted anything new in the pasture? Could he have ingested something that is making him sick? Have you brought in any new hay that may contain parasites, bugs, or other grasses? I am not sure where you live so I can't get more specific than that. Here in Canada, chestnuts can be poisonous and in Oklahoma there is a type of beetle that is poisonous.

Was there any unusual effert on his part when urinating or deficating? Was there anything odd or unusual about the eliminations? Is there any heat in his legs, hooves or frogs? Could he have gotten pricked by a plant that is reacting negatively??? Is there any swelling, heat or tenderness in the joints or muscles?

There are so many questions. Perhaps you could help narrow it down a bit. You might want to consider your location, what is indiginous to you? Have you changed any of your feed or brought anything new in? Are you using a processed or extruded feed? Has anything happened that may have stressed him lately?

Is he struggleing to swallow when eating or drinking? Have you recently changed his bedding? Are you using the same water source? Is the membrane in the nose discolored? Any changes to the appearance of his eyes? Are they clear or watering, weeping? So many questions pop into my mind.

[sbutter]

If he is eating off the ground or even if you have new grass that is coming up, he could be ingesting some sand. This does not explain the temp, but the subtle colic signs. Preferably use a fresh manure pile and pick off the top ball (one that has not touched the ground), put it in a jar of water with a lid and shake it up. Dump the top half of water off and add more water, lid on and shake it up again. Keep repeating until manure ball is completely broken up and been dumped out. If there is more than 4 grains of sand at the bottom of the jar, he is carrying too much sand in the multitude of folds in his intestines. If this is the case, you can buy psyllium at your feed store under different product names. We look for the least expensive and it has worked for us for years.

[DianneC]

Any time a Kiger doesn't eat I think colic. They have a high pain threshold so the symptoms are less conclusive. Do the fecal in water as Sara described, I'm betting on sand colic too. Do you have a stethascope? Sounds like you do. Get everything quiet and then listen for a sound like waves on a beach at the bottom of his belly. Sand Clear or something similar will work but get on it or you will be facing surgery. There is a thread on it here from January of last year when Chickadee had similar symptoms. The temp isn't high enough in my opinion to make it an infection, just stress perhaps. Grinding teeth usually means pain. We'll be praying for you Bobbe and Rick.

[Michelle Clarke]

Could be a rear gut impaction...they put feed in their mouth because they want to eat, but wad it up and spit it out or eat very little at one time. Call your vet. Rev had this a few weeks ago. I would have NEVER thought impaction. Our mobile vet came out and gave pumped water, epsom salt and electrolytes into his stomach to expand it and force some movement. He was better within hours and improved steadily.

Do you have any banamine on hand?

Keep up posted.

[prizmbluekigers]

Thanks everyone and Dianne P locally for calling me to tell me she had a mare with about the exact symptoms and it was sand colic. Fit is doing much better. I gave him a gram of Bute last night and watched him on and off all night. He was not laying down as much, perhaps the Bute made him more comfortable. I get the high threshold for pain statement. Why it took me so long to associate the teeth wiht pain, I don't know. The only horses I was ever around who had colic were Thoroughbreds and they exhibited many clearer symptoms. This morning he still has good stomach sounds, and is not trying to lay down. His temp is in the normal range this morning. I got a hefty dose of psyllium in him and later I am going to worm him. Parasites were the only other thing I could come up with as a possibility last night. He has no new hay and there is nothing growing here in Central Oregon on our place that I worry about. No trees with nuts to be wary of, no bushes near the fences he can injest, so we ruled all that out, but walked every inch of the pasture anyway and did it again this morning when it got light.

I called a vet unknown to me last night and in her defense, she does not know me or my horses, but she went off when I said I only worm 4 times a year and don't fill my horses with the myriad of vaccines out there. I responded be saying these horses are not always typical to the behavoiur of "domestic" horses and she wanted to argue they aren't wild, but feral - as if I wanted to argue about words rather than focus on a solution and she told me to put him in a stall to monitor. When I replied I have 3-sided shelters she said "well that's why we have stalls". If you put him in a pasture he might not want to be caught. In my mind having him in a pasture meant that he could move around freely and mayve help his digestion. I was told it is not good horse care to deny them shots and when I replied his only experience with West Nile vaccine caused a reaction, her answer was that she has given over 20,000 injections withiout a hitch and I must have used a sub standard vaccine or given it incorrectly. Fooey, I usedd a vet used to working with mustangs and it was not a sub standard vaccine and this vet knows her stuff. I finally got ahold of the vet I like and she didn't waste time trying to educate me on care, but gave me about the same suggestions you all offered. I am still going to have her come out and we'll see what she finds. I AM going to try to resolve this prior to needing surgery. All of this is making me re-think giving preventative shots. I'll let you know how the fecal test comes out. Thanks again for all the advice. These horses have not read the horse books that first vet has and she may be a very good vet, but I respectfully feel she does not know mustangs as well as some of you. Experience has to count high on the list.

[canadiankigers]

I completely agree, there is only so much the classroom can teach a vet, the rest is experience and the ability to open their minds up to possibilities and circumstances outside of the box. The vet you described sounded more arguementative than helpful. I have had my fare share of those kinds and am very very lucky enough to have found a wonderful husband wife vet team!

Good luck with your treatments, please keep us updated on your boys progress. It sounds like he is already getting better.

[DianneC]

Glad he is doing better and I'm glad you will have a vet out. Let us know on the sand test. If it is sand you will need to keep up the hefty doses of psyllium. Chick had off and on symptoms for five days before her surgery. They found a mass of fine gravel and hay in her colon the size of a loaf of bread, it was heavy - exactly like wet concrete. She was one of those horses who would look for the last leaf of alfalfa in the mud. None of the other horses in her pasture had any difficulty. Her owner does give Sand Clear one week a month now, especially in winter.
Funny how some vets can't get beyond their little box. I've had a couple out who were anti-mustang and the funny thing was my horses didn't behave very well when those vets were here.

[Michelle Clarke]

I am glad your guy is doing better and I am sorry for the experience you had with that first vet. It is a shame when someone is looking for help that they have to be made to feel they have not taken care of their animals well. We had this happen when we first moved to Texas with an exotic cat we had. We got so much crap from the first few phone calls (for an emergency), that it could have been enough to cause someone to quit trying and the animal would have suffered. It made me mad, especially since we had a USDA license to boot - which is no easy task to get or maintain. They come out four times a year for surprise visits and you have to go through a thorough inspection, including all of your records each time they show up.

Let us know what the vet comes up with.

[prizmbluekigers]

So far, everything points to sand colic and nothing more. Whew!!!!! He has been treated, and is a different horse this afternoon. I am getting attitude and poop! As my son put it it is just two types of s***". I'll take the attitude at this point.

No temp, vitals normal. Amazing what a little oil will do. I've stopped Bute - he only had two grams total. My bad for not taking into consideration the fact that we have had a relatively mild winter for us. It was very cold around Christmas but hasen't been bad since and I should have factored that into my preventative measures and used sand clear more often. Good news is that I am getting new feeders for everyonebefore spring.

Thanks Tiffany for the call today. Try finding Bute or Banamine at 8pm on a Saturday. (I started calling anyone I could think of who has horses. A neighbor had powdered Bute and a couple of syringes.

It is interesting how for some it is hard to think outside the traditional box for treatment and tactics. I found out the vet I like is used by the Fourniers. I chose her a few years ago because after asking her a few questions I felt she did have experience with mustangs. One of our local rescues uses her also and boy do they get some sad cases.

Thanks again, and I am glad to be able to draw on your experiences.

I don't think I would ever choose a trainer who had no experience with mustangs, even a nationally known trainer so why choose someone as important as a vet who had no history with them?

[fantasykiger]

I am so glad to hear about the happy ending to your scary episode there. Thanks for coming back and giving us a update.

[prizmbluekigers]

Well his highness is showing attitude this morning He came trotting up to eat this morning and ran his pasture mate away from morning hay and Rick swears he scowled at Rick when he went in to check water. When he was about at his worst, we were able to walk up to him while he was lying down and stuff a syringe of applesauce and Bute into him with no resistance. Yesterday morning all he wanted to do was rest his head on my shoulder and stand there.
I feel very lucky!!!!

[prizmbluekigers]

Well his highness is showing attitude this morning He came trotting up to eat this morning and ran his pasture mate away from morning hay and Rick swears he scowled at Rick when he went in to check water. When he was about at his worst, we were able to walk up to him while he was lying down and stuff a syringe of applesauce and Bute into him with no resistance. Yesterday morning all he wanted to do was rest his head on my shoulder and stand there.
I feel very lucky!!!!