Vaccinations and the Immune System

[Michelle Clarke]

I thought I would start this thread here on how vaccines work in the body.

The actual vaccine the horse is given does not in it of itself provide protection - no matter what the adds tell you. It triggers a response in the immune system - a HEALTHY immune system, and only this fact alone determines whether or not your horse provides his own protection.

The vac (or antigen) is designed to cause the body to build up antibodies so next time is comes across this antigen, it will take care of it. With a quality vaccine and a strong immune system, this may work. One of the issues here is that many diseases do not produce good antigens, so it has to be manufactured (with toxic substances) to get the immune system to respond. Just look up the effects of mercury on a body - which is what is used in vaccines.

Also think about when a horse is exposed to a disease naturally, it has all the reserve to attack it and concentrate on that one issue. When you give multiple vaccinations at one time, the body is stressed and the immune system wears thin, leaving itself open to other things, such as cancer. Killed vaccines have toxins in it to cause the immune system to respond; Modified Live vaccines acutally hold a small level of the disease - which YES, you can expose animals around them to it!!! Toxiods are the safest, but the only common one given to horses is Tetnus. When someone at our barn vaccinates a horse, they are quarentined for 21 days, as the body can shed the disease that long. I still can say that evey stinken' time someone does that, we have horses that are in close proximity show up with viral attacks. We had a horse get vaccinated last week, and now Baila is showing fever and stomach pain for the last two days. Which I have found is a reaction to the nasal strangles vaccine - which this horse got.

Since most vaccines are given in the muscle and not the way the would naturally enter the body, it causes a systemic infection. The immune system then releases glucocorticoids. One of the risks with an over abundance of glucocorticoids in the blood stream is laminitis. A healthy horse may be able to have a positive response to the effects of the glucocorticoids, but a horse under stress cannot. Stress such as nutritional, mental, emotional, training, traveling, etc.

Once a pathogen has gone systemic, only drugs or strong herbs can weaken it enough so the immune system can take over and irradicate it - assuming it is stong enough to do so.

There has been confirmed links and research on the connectin between auto-immune thyroiditis and behavior changes in dogs. It does not show up at the time of vaccination, but over the years increases the dogs chronic disease levels. Research by Dr. W. Jean Dodds.

I have seen scores of Spanish horses (and many other types of horses) develop hypo-thyroids due to proccessed feeds and over vaccinating. A crest on the neck is not always fat due to too much sugar in the diet. It is the body not intaking/proccessing enough iodine. A simple tablesthingy of Sea Kelp on a daily basis takes care of most cases - there are other herbs that can help a more severe case.

There is also some recent research on people that get the Flu shot. If they get it more than five years in a row, they will develop Alzhiemers in their old age.

Okay, I will get off my soap box now! I understand there are strong opinions about this subject, but all I have provided here are the facts. As always, just know what you are doing and the pros and cons before you do it!

[JoanMRK]

Thank you so much for writing that out Michelle. When I worked at a Kennel we had lost a couple of really wonderful dogs due to hypo-thyroids. They eventually had to be put down and one was an Aussie Shepherd about six years old (not old at all!) and the other was an nine year old German Shepherd, both of which received routine vaccinations. My boss was also anti-vaccinating to her own animals but had to require it for the business though she didn't want to. Bordetella was her biggest vaccine requirement and she also found out that the rabies shot, though given every three years was only required to be given at the third year because initially when the "guinea pig" dogs were given the rabies shot, the scientists didn't want to keep them around to test if their body still reacted to the rabies virus after three years. They got rid of them and ended the expirament. My hollistic vet said that you could probably vaccinate your dog every ten years for rabies and be just fine! I don't know how accurate that really is, but it sure makes you think.

[desperatehorsewife]

Excellent information, Michelle, thank you!

I'd be interested in the flu shot reference. I was thinking about flu shots as I was reading this. (I know...not horsey) My grandmother just got one, again, and this time got sick and had a huge reaction. I'm just not a fan.

[angelsdream]

Thought I'd pass along this story. The place where Im taking lessons, has an older appaloosa mare and just last year after they administered vaccinations, had a very bad reaction. They had to rush her to University of Georgia and thankfully barely saved her life, she went into anapholactic shock - but it was from being routinley vaccinated her whole life and now does not get any vaccinations and since that episode, the owner has limited her vaccinations for all her horses.

I do believe we over vaccinate but I also believe that each person should do there own research and do what's best for you. Each person/horse is different. I had to learn that - I would ask people what there opinion was, people that had more experience than me but I got alot of no response's or they suggested me doing my own research, which turned out to be better in the long run. There's a lot of information out there, its just most people dont take the time to research and just do what everyone (parents, grandparent, great-grandparents, etc) have always done. I am dealing with all this now since I changed over to barefoot with Lakota, everyone around me has been sooo against it and I have had to listen to some ridicule but they are only doing what they've always done and people around them have done, and until someone shows them any different, then how will they know what other options are out there. I had to do my own research on this and actually ended up learning a whole lot in the process.

Im still on the sideline right now with all this vaccination stuff, Im still learning. Although I just have gave Lakota a rabies vaccination due to there being so many cases reported lately. So far there's been 40 cases in a nearby county. But I do not rush to vaccinate any of my animals now.

Thanks for sharing Michelle.

[prizmbluekigers]

In offering several horses for sale recently, I have had a chance to talk with some non-Kiger owners in the area and I was suprised I guess to hear that many of them share the sentiment about being careful what they put into their horses. I wondered when I advised them of my philosophy of not giving shots and vaccines unless the situation calls for it. No one called me horrible for not vaccinating. Not that I thought non Kiger owners were stupid, just that I know from years around horses that to not vaccinate years ago was unheard of in Thoroughbred circles. I'm glad to see we are thinking before we act.

[desperatehorsewife]

I think it's because when you get into the show world, those horses are exposed to so much that vaccinations were the norm. Now, vets are beginning to say that they were over vaccinating (but due to law suits, they vaccinated anyway.)

Of course, it's like any vaccine...we all but wipe out a virus and think it's safe to not vaccinate because we've not seen a problem. Think about the measles. For a while kids weren't vaccinated. We had an outbreak of them here 20 years ago when a college kid was exposed to someone from a 3rd world country, then hopped on a plane, exposed everyone there before coming back to college and exposed thousands more.

So I dunno...it's a tricky thing. I tend to be lax, but occasionally wonder just which vaccines I should be paying attention to.

[DianneC]

A holistic vet once told me that she had never seen a horse die of flu or rhino, but she had seen one die of tetanus. So the rabies would be similar. If it doesn't kill them then why give it? I've gone to giving only the encephalitis and tetanus combo that intvernet ?sp makes. And then only every other year. Even the single dose syringes have mercury now though, why is a mystery unless they are too sloppy to have sterile technique in producing the single dose syringes. Its called Thimerosal. I had my mustang that I leased have a reaction to a Fort Dodge product. His neck was as stiff as a board and we had to have the vet give him another shot for that.

[mystickiger]

Geez, as my first post on this board I sure hope this isn't jumping in too deep. In the spirit of learning, the power of the Internet, and just plainly an attempt to sort through all that I have read.... I have some questions and thoughts.

"When you give multiple vaccinations at one time, the body is stressed and the immune system wears thin, leaving itself open to other things, such as cancer. " Michelle, I totally agree that giving multiple vaccines at one timecan cause stress to the body. That is why mine and most horses in this area (multiple vets involved) have vaccines broken up into three sessions with a min. of 3 weeks between. Can you provide documented,medical proof that the immune system wearing thin can cause such things as cancer? This would be helpful information to present to my vet who also practices holistic methods along with conventional Western medicine.

"I have seen scores of Spanish horses (and many other types of horses) develop hypo-thyroids due to proccessed feeds and over vaccinating. A crest on the neck is not always fat due to too much sugar in the diet. It is the body not intaking/proccessing enough iodine. A simple tablesthingy of Sea Kelp on a daily basis takes care of most cases - there are other herbs that can help a more severe case.

I too have seen scores of horses that have developed a cresty neck due to hypo-thyroid conditions due to improper feeding, not necessarily processed feeds or vaccinations - just improper feeding. You are correct that thyroid conditions are aggravated by incorrect intake or inability to process iodine which doesn't necessarily mean that there is too much sugar in the diet. Sea Kelp is a commonly know source of iodine but many good "processed" feeds are too. You mention seeing this in your many years of experience with Spanish horses, can you please elaborate on what breeds of Spanish horses you have personally seen develop hypo-thyroids due to processed feeds and over vaccinating. Possibly we can find a collocation to the Kigers?

"A holistic vet once told me that she had never seen a horse die of flu or rhino, but she had seen one die of tetanus. So the rabies would be similar. If it doesn't kill them then why give it? "
Dianne, have you ever seen a horse needlessly suffer from West Niles? Many recover - but why subject them to that?

"I think it's because when you get into the show world, those horses are exposed to so much that vaccinations were the norm."
Desperatehorsewife, you hit the nail on the head. As far as I'm concerned, if your horse is out in the public eye at shows, demo, clinics, CTRs and endurance rides, parades, boarding facilities, etc. why would you jeopardize your horse and the long term effects that the illness itself bores for the sake of the possible long term effects of the vaccine.

I guess the long and short of it to me is - if you take your horse out into public - vaccinate, feed a balanced diet(meaning you know the percentages of even your yearly hay), and don't over supplement. If your horse never leaves your farm except for an occasional trail ride with it's barn mates than don't worry about vaccinating if it's not environmentally risky for your area.

As I write this I just realized that my retired Ara App, who never leaves my property, still has her Fall flu/rhino shot in my refrigerate. I must remember to give that to her in the morning. Guess it's not a priority. My Kigers, who are at a boarding facility so that I can continue to ride through the winter, had their Fall flu/rhino over a month ago.

[Michelle Clarke]

Welcome on board...your comments just inspire more thought into the subject and we can all learn more, that's for sure!

As far as over vaccinating and cancer, just look up "free radicals and cancer". Free radicals are caused by a number of reasons in the body - toxins, pollutants, food, drugs/meds, etc. Free radicals are unstable and harmful to the body...they really affect the respiration and immune response to infection. Free radicals have major implications on aging, many diseases and cancer.

When the body is exposed to a disease (as in the vaccinations), the immune system kicks in to fight it off. Usually the body only gets exposure to one at a time and only the front line of defense is used. When multiple diseases enter the body at one time (i.e. vacs), the body uses many sources and resources - thereby depleting what is available to the immune system in reserve. This then allows other things to take hold and get stonger, including the free radicals - which concludes that it is easier for cancer cells to form during this time to an already stressed system.

This was very common when West Nile was a big deal. We had 40 horses at our place in Chicago. Only 1 person opted to vaccinate her horse, none of the others did, including everything from foals to old horses (totally unvaccinated). We had tons of mesquitos that year and on a weekly basis there were dead crows in our pastures. The horse next door died from it (old horse, new owners did not recognize anything was wrong with him). Many reports from our vets confirmed horses dieing from WN - including those that were vaccinated. The overall conclusion was that the system was stressed with the vaccination, then they got hit with it naturally and the system could not take the double whammies. We won't even talk about all the fertility and foaling issues....!!

We had a few horses come down with light flu-like symptoms, but that was the extent of it. Even humans do not have a shot for it and now, basically everyone has been exposed and have built up our own immune resistance to it.

For me, I weigh the pros and cons and the cons far outway the pros as far as I am concerned. The damage that is done by over vaccinating scares me more than a small chance my horse is exposed to WN. Too many cases I have been privy to have been cured.

As far as other Spanish type horses with hypo-thyroid: Andalusians, some lines of Lusitanos (not the Veigas), Paso Finos & Peruvian Pasos. Other breeds have been Morgans, some Saddlebreds, certain lines of Arabs (mostly the old lines) and some foundation lines of QHs'.

Personally, I choose to treat this with Sea Kelp because it is iodine in the most natural form - not sythetic. It is also balanced along with potassium - which is needed for best absorbtion.

It is great to see that things are changing some and folks are looking deeper into just doing what has always been done - including our vets!

[desperatehorsewife]

Thank you, Mystickiger; I typically hit my thumb, so it's nice to hit the head of the nail now and then ;D

I won't be vaccinated for WNV as it swings either way; they can survive or die regardless of whether they've had the vaccination or not. Strangles, on the other hand...I haven't been vaccinating for it, but since I'm going to be heading out to a lot more public events this year, I might start. Tetnus is a given, and probably flu as well (because of the traveling.)

[DianneC]

What kind if immune stimulants are appropriate for horses? I had Quil Ceda get a bad cold and gave her an immune stimulant and she seemed to get better really quickly. None of the other horses got it, although the other foals were across the street in a different pasture. It made me wonder if finding a good stimulant was a better idea or a good partner with reduced vaccinations.
Here is what I used, I'd be interested to hear comments on the ingredients. I chose it because it had things I recognized from human therapy, although I know that doesn't always cross over to horses. www.estores-equine.com/product/G319W1LTR