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Post by stacy on Feb 21, 2012 22:01:06 GMT -5
I would like some opinions-a part of me thinks I should geld Ruger, but most of me doesn't want to. I don't want to geld him for several reasons- One is that I love his energy (when he has it) and his desire to go down the trail. We have 190 trail miles and he ENJOYS going out especially exploring new areas. When we are on the same trails, he can be a real plug, and I wonder if he would be MORE of a plug if gelded. Two, he really tries to please me, and I wonder if this is the stallion. Three, I wonder if he has more value as a stallion. Finally, I think the testosterone will help if I compete with him in endurance. His recoveries are great, and his tendons and bones must be pretty dense, due to the testosterone. I will never be truly competitive on him, he slows down when he thinks he may break into a sweat...but that is ok, as long as he enjoys it. I am wanting advice about other issues with stallions. Will he become 'stallion like' during the spring? So far this has not been an issue. One of my rides was with two mares, one of them kept stopping in front of him to 'squirt'-full blown in heat. He would do that low nicker, and I would tap him w/ the crop and bring his attention back to me. At one point I asked if I could be in the lead, and he walked away from the mares. But then we had to stop at a junction and the mare trotted past him...sigh. But she kept ahead and he was content to stay behind the other two horses. Gave me grey hair and I am true believer of Vicks, which he got smeared on what ever I could reach on his head. This got me thinking about gelding him, not because of his behavior, but because of the cluelessness of the people I was riding with. The other thing I am concerned about is how he will react at an endurance ride...there is a lot of energy there. I can't tell how he will react because so far he is fairly terrified of other horse and riders (other than my friends I ride with.) I took him to watch team penning and he was SO afraid of the horse/riders that I could barely get him close to the horse/riders standing around watching. I finally got him standing there and two idiots came cantering up the pavement, in the dark-scared the poop out of him, he bolted and I hung on for dear life. Poor guy. I will take him back to the fairgrounds when there isn't team penning. Anyway, I have heard all of the scary stallion stories, but I just don't see him suddenly turning rogue on me and try to take my face off. He does 'drop' and show me his manhood in all it's glory every once in a while. He 'dropped' when I peed on the trail, I was trying to scoot away from him and he was breathing in my ear. When he drops, I tap his belly with the crop and tell him to 'get it up'. Any suggestions on that? I would really like the thoughts/suggestions of the Kiger stallion owners. Attachments:
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Post by stacy on Feb 21, 2012 22:07:12 GMT -5
Another picture... Attachments:
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Feb 21, 2012 22:46:08 GMT -5
Every stallion is different and it is hard to know how they will act in each situation because the energy from other horses will vary and can change very quickly - like split second. Honestly, if you want to ride, compete and enjoy him, you'll do better off gelding him. You can not relax with a stud - especially, like you said, because of other people. The other thing is that if you don't have mares for him and will actively be breeding him, there is no point. You have to promote stallions in order to get breedings, which costs money. Doing AI is a big pain in the butt and you are at the mare owners demand. If you have a big ride coming up and someones' mare comes into heat - you have an obligation to that mare first. Plus, if you don't buy the equipment, learn how to collect yourself, teach him how to collect, package and ship all on your own - you have a vet to pay and coordinate with not to mention loading up to go to the office in time for everything to be done and Fed-Exed on time. If you are going to offer live cover - do you have the facility to handle outside mares? What if they have a foal at their side? How will you handle a mare that does not want to be bred or will kick the crap out of your stallion? Do you have the knowledge to teach your stallion proper in hand breeding? Do you want the liability of other horses at your place in a breeding situation? What if something happens to the mare? You'll need insurance for this in order to protect your assets.
You may have more issues in spring, especially when mares begin coming into heat. There is also the fact that he has not been domestic raised and been in check since he was young. He probably has fighting experience and may go after geldings when mares are around. I've seen this happen even with domestic stallions - I can't imagine with one that already knows the ropes of fighting for breeding rights. You can't believe the energy around here in spring with 35 mares coming in and out of heat plus three mature stallions and a handful of young studs. CRAZY!! Everyone changes and we are on our toes at all times.
Consider also if you are on a ride with another stallion along with mares around or a riggy gelding...like I mentioned, he is used to knowing how to handle what he deems as competition on his own. We not only train our stallions in groups to teach proper behavior in those situations (it can get really hairy...) but we work them purposely around mares in heat, other boys, etc. Takes a lot of preparation - not just waiting until the situation presents itself and you have no tools.
Lots to consider.
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Post by stacy on Feb 21, 2012 23:16:55 GMT -5
Boy, that is a lot to consider! What kind of behavior changes would I see if I geld him? I really had no plans to breed him, I just like everything about him the way he is now...I hate to lose some of that 'personality'.
Thanks for the reply!
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Post by MustangsInNC on Feb 21, 2012 23:54:02 GMT -5
Great answer Michelle. I kept Tesoro a stallion. I adopted him as a coming 2 year old, so I had the opportunity to raise him around other horses, teach him manners, and give him a good solid foundation under saddle before he ever got the chance to be a breeding horse. Tesoro knows that manners come first, and girls are just a benefit. I've never ever had to use a stud chain on him, and so far he's given me no reason to. I do ride with mares, geldings, and have ridden with another stud. In that situation, the other stud was the problem! He was a domestic raised Appaloosa stallion... go figure!
That being said... I do have to be EXTREMELY alert whenever I ride him. Mainly because of other people. Plus, there is always the chance that he will have a "stallion moment" and do something dumb that I'm not expecting. We run a public trail riding stable here, and I can't ride him with customers for liability reasons here. And he can not go out in the pasture with the other horses, he has to stay in his own small paddock. Do I think he would enjoy life as a gelding out in the field with everyone else? No doubt...
I do have my own mares to breed to him. And hopefully after he's proven and I get his name out in the public eye, I might offer him to outside mares.
Right now I'm a small operation with big dreams. And I adore Tesoro... he's my pride and joy. But if he ever gets hard to handle or has aggression issues, he will be gelded. I love him enough to do what is right for him.
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Post by stormyranch on Feb 22, 2012 0:32:47 GMT -5
I think everything you love about him will still be there when you geld him. I believe stallions are lazy as they reserve their strength for fighting. The hardest part about owning a stallion is being around ignorant people or unaware people who don't know your on a stallion because he's well behaved. Dino is afraid of other horses coming at him, because he thinks it's a mare that's gonna kick his butt..
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Post by sbutter on Feb 22, 2012 2:07:34 GMT -5
If you have the money, you can also freeze semen if you do decide to geld him. Like I said before, if I didn't have Mojito, I would have been sorely tempted to pick Ruger at the adoption  This is a big decision and I don't know what your set up is like. This spring will give you a good idea of what he is like as a stallion. It also may visually help to make a list of pros and cons in front of you to see which one has more. If he can get the stallion training in (in all aspects of his life) it might tip the scale over to the pro. But..if it will be hard to socialize him and get him exposed to all sorts of situations in a controlled environment, then that might be more con. |
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Feb 22, 2012 7:59:23 GMT -5
Stacy, I know what you mean, I love my boys! Gelding him at this age will leave most of who he is that you love. It will take out the testosterone drive to breed and fight, which you don't need anyway if you don't plan on breeding. Geldings have a much better life in general. We geld most of our boys at three anyway and they tend to keep their energy levels or have more because they are not preoccupied with focusing on other horses so much - the energy goes to working mode. Gelding them early on in life is what can make them lazy and disconnected. You'll be able to relax and enjoy him more I bet.
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Post by kigercat on Feb 22, 2012 16:02:08 GMT -5
Kim Kellogg can give you lots of insight with 3 riding stallions that she uses on all sorts of mixed company rides and events.
All hers know that when under saddle they have a job to do and they do it.
My main riding horse is a mare that will come into heat at the mere mention of a stallion. And I have ridden her with Kim riding Ki several times with no problems...I think truth be told my mare is a bigger pill that Ki has ever been! But we were both aware of the situation and there were no problems. In fact when Diva was super uber green it was Kim and Ki that I did the majority of my riding with and she learned her trail manners from Ki. He's all business under saddle =)
Biggest issue is probably other people....and those mares that just hate studs in general, in heat or not, that could kick out or cop an attitude that their rider doesn't have a handle on. So want to stay aware of your surroundings to protect both yourself and your horse.
And I'd just introduce him to groups little by little till he is comfortable handling the larger crowds and people on horse back. Probably most his association of the riders and high energy is the wrangles at the BLM breaking horses from the groups and herding them down the chutes etc.
I don't think that gelding him will miraculously make him comfortable in a high energy setting with riders and such that he is currently afraid of. That will come from exposure and experience to build his comfort level in the uncomfortable situation.
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Post by DianneC on Feb 22, 2012 16:33:14 GMT -5
Really great comments! If you aren't going to breed him (do consider frozen, although it is fairly expensive - not only to get it but to rent space to keep it) then I would geld him. I gelded Chinook because I wasn't breeding and wanted him to be in with the girls in a natural setting. He was still protective of them, I wouldn't have been able to put in a gelding without a fight in that natural herd environment. He was less bold and courageous, instead of a shy in place he would do a normal shy. I missed that. When he was first gelded he was very low energy until he adjusted to the lack of hormones, then he was fine. He did get an infection and had to have it reopened, more expense and a lot of management so good that Ruger is well gentled by you. I worry about ungentled stallions getting gelded.
Horses running up on any other horse give the impression that they want to fight. Domestic breds may not have any reaction, but even domestic Kigers can be sensitive to their "space" and may be sensitive to new people as well if they don't take the time to introduce themselves. i.e. if someone walks up and grabs their leg or tries to cowboy them. Any sensitive horse will read body language and react according to horse etiquette, gelded or ungelded. Its not an easy decision but other people think any stallion, especially a mustang, needs whips and chains to be handled. So what if something happened to you?
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Post by kimk on Feb 22, 2012 19:47:59 GMT -5
Stacy, all of the above are good comments and have merit of thier own. Personally, from what you have written and my interpretation of it, I would not geld him. It will not give him more energy being a gelding. If he is a lazy stallion he will be a lazy gelding. I have 3 Kiger stallions that I currently ride in all different types of situations, from shows to expo's to trails. All three are different from each other and all three are mannerly and reliable under saddle. Vicks is not a substitution for good training, which is what I can see you are doing with Ruger. The more good training achieved with him, the more you can address his sensitivity to other horse/riders as well. Gelding him is also not a substitute for good training.
Now, I may be biased as Ruger was my number 1 and ONLY pick at the adoption, but I had decided I wasn't going to adopt and literally sat on my hands during bidding. IMO, comparing Kiger stallions with domestic stallions is like apples to oranges.
I absolutely agree that the biggest issue will be the other idiots out there. they're everywhere! While riding a stallion you simply must be more aware, which really isn't a bad thing anyhow. I wish more mare owners were as aware as I need to be while riding my boys. Regardless, my stallions are my favorite horses to ride, bar none. Given a choice, any day I will choose one of my three boys over any other horse I have. Unfortunately that doesn't always happen since they all need ridden;)
As time goes on, and you continue doing the job you are doing with him, you will also have put into place an insurance policy of your own for him, should something happen to you. He will be a kind, mannerly, and well rounded riding horse as well as a stallion worthy of his genetics being preserved; and the liklihood of him finding a good home will be equal of that as a gelding. I vote no to gelding Ruger!!!
Kim
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Post by stacy on Feb 22, 2012 21:35:36 GMT -5
Thank you SO MUCH for all of the replies. I have so much to think about. I am not going to jump on a decision. I will continue to work him...and see how it goes. Tomorrow we will go to the fairgrounds in the morning (no team penning).
I love this group, what a wealth of information!
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This is a big decision and I don't know what your set up is like. This spring will give you a good idea of what he is like as a stallion. It also may visually help to make a list of pros and cons in front of you to see which one has more. If he can get the stallion training in (in all aspects of his life) it might tip the scale over to the pro. But..if it will be hard to socialize him and get him exposed to all sorts of situations in a controlled environment, then that might be more con. 
