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Post by angelsdream on Jul 14, 2009 14:41:30 GMT -5
I got to thinking about this the other day and how hard it is for me to maintain my 2 girls. It's constant attention to make sure they don't eat too much and founder right now. They are kept up the majority of the day and let out a few hours a day to eat. I do feed them a few flakes while they are up and there supplements. In the winter time, it's not that bad as the grass is dead and not growing, so I can leave them out all the time, but this time of year it's more work. I want them to get there exercise but at the same time can't let them out due to them eating too much. Just me letting them out a few hours, they maintain there weight pretty good. I'm looking at getting one of (or making one) those hay holders. The ones that have small holes for the hay to come out - so therefore they can't devour the hay so fast, they have to work at it because I know it's better if something is moving thru there gut all the time instead of not eating for hours, because doesn't there system go into survival mode where it starts storing everything if they're not eating constantly? What does everyone else do? For those that don't have a lot of pasture, they are great for you, but for those of us that have lush green fields - any suggestions? I think I will be the only horse owner that does not want grass in there horse fields  Does everyone else leave there horse's out? |
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Post by kigerfan on Jul 14, 2009 16:10:07 GMT -5
firefly stays out for about six hours a day right now, the grass is dead and she has to be really picky about what she eats. She gets a flake of alfalfa in the morning and a flake of bermuda at night. She's saying happy, healthy and a good weight on this program.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Jul 14, 2009 22:47:55 GMT -5
"Easy keepers" are horses that are insulin resistant - most horses are unless you get into the thoroughbred types. Horses are just not made to be able to proccess lots of sugars.
We have been working on this for years and especially with the young ones because if they grow up fat or have big bellies, thier spines will develop with a dip instead of straight and they will develop high heads, upside down necks and duck paddling in the backend. Finding the balance of providing all the nutrients (which does include carbs and protein for young, growing horses) has not proved easy.
It is unfortunate, but because our horses don't travel alot of distance during a 24 hour period, thier forage has to be limited. Lush grass with little exercise and movement will only cause a build up of the sugars. Now, in my experience though, since the sugar in grass is a different structure than proccessed sugars and molasses on feed stuffs and basically they are digesting a "whole food", it will be absorbed differently and balanced within itself. What I have seen over the years is when a horse will grass founder (there are all types of founders), it is because the system already has a problem such as being overloaded with proccessed sugars and the wrong type of carbs (or over vaccinated/antibiotics or too much chemical deworming).
Because of these reasons, we have found that a higher level of whole concentrates (not proccessed feeds) will fulfill thier needs better and therefore, they are less interested in gorging themselves while trying to get what thier bodies need.
I have also found that the spanish type horses do not do well on certain types of starch. There are two types that are used mainly in livestock feed (C3's and C4's) - C4's are the ones they do not do well on - this being corn, ricebran, sorgum, soy. However, the C3's are very easily digested and utilized: oats, barley and wheat. In fact, in the lastest Holistic Horse magazine, there is a few paragraphs now for the first time saying that Grains can help manage insulin resistant horses. From my research, barley actually helps balance and move sugars through better.
Another thing that comes up is the thyroid gets unbalanced. Most times it is a hypo-thyroid, which basically means the body lacks sodium. Even if they have salt available, they may not be able to take enough in. These horses will have cresty necks and fat pockets in unusual places. Simply adding sea kelp to the diet takes care of these issues in most cases.
Horses detox through the feet through the laminia - which, when overloaded, gets sore. When you start to see rings developing on your horses feet, they have already experienced small "laminitic episodes" and there is a danger of having a real founder on your hands sooner or later if things don't change. When they body has had enough sugar (or the carbs have overloaded and turned to sugar that is being unused), the bloodstream kicks it out of the body when the horse is static (such as being stalled at night). In the morning you will see fluid filled on the legs and around the joints, but it will go away once the horses gets mobile again. Back into the bloodstream it gets pushed and if not used, they cycle will start over again with eventually trying to push it out through the feet, then founder.
The first sign is a horse starting to land on it's toes (especially at the trot and canter) instead of the heels. The heels get sore because of the toxins trying to leave the foot through the laminia. I had an interesting conversation with a farrier at a clinic I was giving and talking on this subject. He said that when he would go to treat a founder, he would ask what happened to the horse about three months ago...every client would say spring shots or tube worming. He was amazed at the connections he was begining to make and never fully understood why until he heard my talk.
So, I know that forage first is a big thing for some people with horses right now, but because of the way we keep them and what they are used for, it simply is not enough and can even be harmful....not to mention just pasture or just hay is in no way balanced and giving the horse everything it needs - especially a growing or performance horse.
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Post by kimk on Jul 15, 2009 0:08:55 GMT -5
"Easy keepers" are horses that are insulin resistant - most horses are unless you get into the thoroughbred types. Horses are just not made to be able to proccess lots of sugars. Michelle, I have to disagree with this broad spectrum a statement. Most sugars are found in the 2" of grass found closest to the earth. so lush pastures generally are not full of sugars, until they become grazed down to that last 2". I understand where you are coming from but not ALL "easy keepers" are insulin resistant. Angel, Have you thought of trying grazing muzzles on your horses?? I use one occasionally on Kody and it works well, and he really doesn't mind it. Just a thought. Kim |
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Post by angelsdream on Jul 15, 2009 6:57:25 GMT -5
Thanks for all the info. I have had Lakota's thyroid tested and it was fine and I'm really watching Bella as I don't want her spine to be dropped any from a big belly - I have seen that in many foals, big ole pop belly...I may have to try a muzzle on both of them. Just so they will get exercise but still not eat so much. I have been riding Lakota 3 times a week at length so I think she's getting some good workouts but it still don't take long for them to gain weight if left out in the field for long.
Michelle -
I do watch there hooves as well. I've seen so many horse's founder and you can definately see the rings in there hooves. It could also come from any type of change, I know Bella had one after I got her here and I'm sure it was due to the stress of shipping across the U.S. but that is the 1st thing I look at. The hoof wall will actually start seperating early on before you actually start see'ing the signs of founder.
So do most of you have a lot of grass in your fields? Is there anyone that keeps theres horses out 24/7?
Also - another question, is it good for the horse to be on/off grass so much with such up/down? I would think it would mess there system up, being able to eat a few hours then not, the only reason I say this is because horse's are made to eat most of the day - I remember doing some reading and it said that there digestion system is built to have food pass thru most of the time.
Not an easy solution by no means - especially spring and summer months.
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Post by dazzlingduns on Jul 15, 2009 8:00:05 GMT -5
Angel,
I keep a few of my easy keepers in large dry lots and fed them small amounts of grass hay several times a day. I even spread the hay out so the horses will have to move around to eat. I feed these horses more mature hay-less digestable, than smaller amounts, so they can pick at the hay for longer period of time. I have one horse, one of my best riding horses, with metabolic disorder. I give just enough low starch pelleted feed to mix the total equine supplement in. We have been manageing this condition for the past five years. It has been a real trial and error at times, but I do believe we now have this under control and manageable. I have learned through this experience to get a second and even third opinion from vererinarians and do MUCH research. My easy keepers do well on the total equine supplement.
We can talk more about this over the weekend if you'd like.
Melissa
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Post by DianneC on Jul 15, 2009 10:14:45 GMT -5
Can you put up a cross fence? We have one of the pastures cross fenced with temporary fencing and hot wire. You can move the fence to give access to more grass as the old area is used. The grass is more mature that they are eating that way.
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Post by angelsdream on Jul 15, 2009 10:54:33 GMT -5
Oh yes Melissa, I do love the total equine supplements as well. Been giving them to all my horses since last year. Good variety of minerals in them as well - they really put a nice shine to the coat!
I wonder if all mustangs are like this? Tracey, what do you think, are your mustangs the same? I would think they are -
So I guess it's better for them to eat taller mature grass rather than keeping it cut down really low so they can't eat as much? Does make sense that there would be more sugar in the new grass, which is why you always see them on it first. And since they are on the lot most of the time, I have to give them sand clear once a month or so to keep the sand cleaned out - anyone else have any other remedies for that,? That stuff gets pretty expensive.
We were planning on leaving tomorrow evening for Kentucky, but not sure if we'll be able to come now - Lakota started limping on her right side, so made a vet appt for tomorrow to see what's going on. Im pretty worried. She started a few days ago, so Ive kept an eye on her and have not seen a big change yet. I cant really tell where it's coming from - hoof, shoulder, leg?? I noticed when I first got her she was giving on it then, but thought it was due to me pulling her shoes and transitioning to barefoot - she got better but she has give on it some here and there and always on her right side, so I want to go ahead and get it checked out. Also when I lope her to the right she keeps dropping her shoulder in on me, not sure if that has anything to do with it - yes, I'm worried worried so disecting everything now!! Hopefully nothing serious tho. Will let you guys know.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Jul 15, 2009 11:41:21 GMT -5
Keep us informed on how Lakota is doing....it may be something as simple as a stone bruise, so don't worry too much. Maybe a chiropractic adjustment if she tends to drop the shoulder and nothing else is wrong. The mobile vet I use is carrying some very nice boots for horses - Soft Ride. I have not done research on them yet, but they have a good attachement for wrapping around the foot and have different orthodics that can be put it. They were not too expensive either, right under $200 for a pair. I had thought they might be good for assisting in the transition from shoes to barefoot, plus to use when riding on trail maybe. This vet has had alot of successes with them. www.soft-ride.com/Kim, you're right that was too broad of a statement....I guess I just don't belive that horses can really handle proccessed sugars, no matter what type of horse - especially those that tend toward being heavy anyway. |
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Post by angelsdream on Jul 17, 2009 9:04:27 GMT -5
Those are interesting boots. I've never seen anything like that. I wonder what keeps them in place on the hoof tho, to keep them from popping up and down? I'll have to read more. I've got some Boa boots but have only used them a few times.
Lakota is fine right now. The vet couldn't really find anything wrong with her. Like a dummy I didn't ride her the day before to see if she would be more tender so we could pin point it. She did the flex test and the hoof test and she was fine. We are thinking it may have to do with her trimming schedule. She was due to be trimmed when she started limping - we had her trimmed Tuesday and by Thursday she had stopped giving on it. She said to just make notes of her trim schedule and keep riding her, so when and if she starts giving again, to look back and see how long its been since her trimming. That when she gets a little long, most her weight is on her heal so she could get sore - anyone else have any other thoughts? She wasn't that long - but I do notice she wears her outside off, so means she's putting her weight on the outside. I've never seen it be that big of an issue on most horse's - the only time Ive seen one sore is after they've been trimmed, if they were pretty long and it changes there balance. Im still concerned but nothing I can do until she starts again (which hopefully she won't)
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Does everyone else leave there horse's out?
