What makes a horse/bloodline "proven"?

[desperatehorsewife]

Kelly, how does one prove oneself as a broodmare or breeding stallion?

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I like the syndicate idea. Excellent thought.

[Michelle Clarke]

Syndication is an excellent idea, however alot of $$ have to be put up front and finding the right stallion is also a HUGE undertaking, especially when this breed is so young and bloodlines are really not proven in the normal sense of the word....we can't say that this colt should really perform/produce because they don't have the sire/dam to back that up - performance especially. And we all know that just because a horse has performed, does not mean he/she can produce.

I think that the downside to alot of these issues is that the breed has been basically owned by alot of "novel" breeders in the past - breeding for a fast $$ because of the novelty of the breed. Those folks usually concentrate on first generations only, selling weanlings and not training breeding stock to any real upper level or without a real goal in mind, except making the $$.

I belive there have been and are, plenty of quality Kigers that will never have the chance to prove anything because of the situations they are in - meaning, owners without the funds or know-how to really promote these horses. Of no fault of their own.

I also belive now that the novelty has worn off, there are some really good breeders out there that are getting a "plan" and moving forward to promote these horses well. Like anything else, that will take awhile.

Perfect example: our jr. stallion, Desi, is really a nice horse. Many folks from different breeds go ga-ga over him and he stands out for sure. Desi contracted EPM as a foal and it did not show up until he was started under saddle. Though he made a good recovery, he is not holding up to intense training and never will. He has two fillies on the ground from last year. Lot's of positives with them: tall and leggy, short bodied, excellent movement and lots of bone. I like them for different reasons than I like Charros' foals, so far. I am expecting three more in the spring.

I have a hard choice now. Do I keep another thing with testicles around here doing nothing much but breeding? A stallion that will not prove himself, but may be proven through his offspring? How long will that take? Will those foals get into the right hands with the funds and trainers to make that happen? I am really leaning toward gelding him, then yesterday I see his foals out playing and can't get over their movement...will they train as well as Charros' foals? I don't know yet. Will they develop into something that is desirable to performance buyers? I don't know yet.

There are alot of questions, because of contracting the EPM so young, his own body has developed with those negative influences, so the flaws I see in Desi I was told are not genetic (based on his parents and full siblings) - but really, I won't know until his foals are old enough to be trained. For example, it is typical of EPM horses to have front feet that turn in and back feet that turn out - which he does, but neither of the foals do. In picts of Desi growing up, his feet where straight, the deviation began when he was coming three. He had had the same farrier his whole life, so no changes there either.

That is just a good example of what breeders have to deal with and make decisions over....not easy ones at all.

[sbutter]

I guess looking at kigers and what challenges they face since they are "new," I would say that broodmares (that have already had foals) need to show that they produce consistently high quality foals. The kind of foals that you could put out with a mixture of other breeds of foals and they would be one of the top favorites. Each breed has a certain look that they are going for, so they each would have their own characteristics. But a good quality horse is a good quality horse. I may breed TBs and be used to a certain look, but my head will turn if I see a horse that is an excellent quality, even if it is not a look I would look for in a TB. These foals need to be as close if not the whole package that could excell in what ever discipline the buyer could choose. The foal may be able to excell in one discipline more than another, but it would be good to still stick to the "all around" horse. There can be some variety in a breed, but they still need to be similar enough that people would guess that they are both Kigers. TBs are the same way. There are TBs that are bred for distance and turf and then there are the sprint horses. They both have different looks, but it is easy to tell that they are both TBs.

Stallions need to show that they produce good looking/good minded foals with a certain "look." There are a lot of good TB stallions that throw a certain "look" with their foals, and each has a good look. It would be good to study the foals that a stallion produces with what mares and see how they cross. Some stallions will produce themselves regardless of who the mare is. On the same token, some mares do the same thing. For the young "unproven" (that should be breeding) stallions, they need to be bred to mares that have consistently had good foals by different stallions. That way there aren't two unknowns. Again, want to eliminate as many risks as possible. If the stallion hasn't been out in the public eye, then his foals need to be. It would be hard, but good to do to pressure stallion owners to either show their stallions or the stallion's offspring. In this current economy that may not be financially possible, but it should be a future goal. Set high standards and then consistently work towards them.

[sbutter]

As far as a syndication goes, I was thinking of helping out breeders that know what they are doing and maybe have the experiance to campaign a horse, but money was tight. Even if a deal could be worked out amongst breeders to elimanate the cost of showing the stallion, it would be a step. The "partenership" could even be between five +,- people. Even if the stallion doesn't produce the kind of foals we need, at least we started seriously campaigning a kiger and hopefully started generating interest. The idea is to split the costs between like minded people working towards the same goal. The breed is in a hard predicament as far as being "young" and "unproven," but the ball has to get rolling some time and breeders have to start relying on each other to promote this breed.

[Michelle Clarke]

Agian, what great points....when I look for an outside stallion, one of the things I want to be able to do is walk out into a pasture of foals and mares and be able to just know what foals are that stallions. Like you said, that certain "look".

Our older QH mare, Momma, has had two foals by Charro and next year we will have two by Desi, so that will be a great comparison. What I am looking for in Desi is for him to improve those mares over Charro - if his foals are not better than his sires, then that is another reason to geld him. So far with the one filly, I am on the fence. She is not a feminine filly at all, but has a great build, substance and alot of movement. The fillies by Charro are definately more girly looking, nice conformation and the older one can sure move, the yearling has been too gangly lately, but from what I saw last year with her, she has nice movement too - just different that what Desi throws. Charro has left a more flatter movement on those QH fillies out of Momma, whereas Desi has put alot more flexion into those knees and hocks. Nothing flat about Charros' movement, just did not put that onto those fillies. He did put the more spanish moves onto the other QH mare though with Amada, but not so much the colt, so there you go. The other QH mare is Mommas' daughter also, so they are all related. Another daugther of Momma was bred to Desi last year, so another good comparison.

Part of what I like about crossbreeding, is that I can see exactly what iberian type traits are passed onto non-spanish mares, so it is easier to see that traits that my stallions can throw and be predominant in. With breeding the purebreds, it is a bit more difficult to see. I know that when I bred to one of JP's stallions, he can tell me, this stallion will put movement onto a mare that is flat; this stallion will improve bone; this stallion will improve temperment. These are the types of things I want to know with my guys too.

I also think another important factor in breeding is being able to cull mares when they are not producing very high quality foals. The King Ranch had a good system for years: every foal was evaluated for conformation on a 1-10 scale. If a mare produced 2 foals scoring between 5 and 7, she was switched to another stallion. If that foal scored 7 or below, she was culled from the breeding herd.

I do think it is time for Kiger breeder to get together and at least get some kind of group going. We started a breeders group here, we have four breeders that raise the horses similarly and have like-minded goals set. They are not all just Kiger breeders, but are focusing on Iberian type horses - mostly crossbreds. I would be happy to get with serious Kiger breeders and get a group going.

[desperatehorsewife]

Next question...where are you going to market said horse? I've worked here with a couple of folks who've helped get mustangs accepted in the B system of shows through Washington State Horsemen (their own high point division, they've always been able to compete.) These aren't shows that are going to gain national attention, but a stepping stone to get the mustangs out there on even footing with other breeds in a multitude of different events.

For Kigers to gain recognition as a legitimate breed, they not only should have that 'look' that sets them apart, but they've got to be able to take on at the very least the middle class, so to speak, of the show world. From there, perhaps the syndicate could select those horses that are worthy of promoting at a higher level?

Michelle, you're quite right about some folks not having the money to campaign their horses. A lot of them also just haven't got the desire to do anything more than trail ride. Makes it difficult because you know that out there somewhere is a jewel in the making.

[canadiankigers]

Kelly, how does one prove oneself as a broodmare or breeding stallion?
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DHW:

That is an excellent question. A prime example of a broodmare prooving herself can be best explained by telling you a story from my past.

When I was a preteen, I could NOT get enough of horses so I volunteered at a local equestrian facility. They bred both Q-Horses and racing T-breds. Quit often stallion owners would stand there studs at this facility during the breeding season.

Come spring time when all the foals were out on pasture, potential buyers and owners would be constantly coming and going. There was this one mare that was always put out back where no one would see her. She was not .... shall we say..... the best looking mare in the barn. Infact she was quit non discript and plain looking, nothing that you would ever want to breed to but no matter what stallion she was bred to, she always threw the best foal in the place.

I guess what I am saying is a brood mare can prove herself by the consistant quality of foals she throws regardless of the stallion she is bred to. In my breeding program, I have chosen to judge my mares not by what they look like as much as what they produce. My goal is to be able to one day say that my brood mare band consists of champion producers.

Kelly

[sbutter]

We too have a TB mare that doesn't look like much, but throws amazing foals. The only thing that she passes on is her beautiful head (the only really good feature of her). All of her foals take after there sires and so, if we like a certain stallion's looks, we will breed her to him, knowing we will have a replica.

[canadiankigers]

I do think it is time for Kiger breeder to get together and at least get some kind of group going.
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Michelle:

Can you email me with m ore information about your breeders group?
Kelly

[desperatehorsewife]

Kelly, how are you determining the quality of those foals? Again, the foal has to prove itself before you can call the mare proven, wouldn't you? It'd be several years before she had enough foals on the ground to call herself a proven producer, wouldn't it?

Unless proven is just being pretty...and there again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. With nothing standardized and no breed organization with a standard to judge against (or shows to out distance yourself from the competition), what have you got?

Proven has got to be more than just successfully throwing nice foals, because there are a lot of horses that have pretty babies. If that's all it takes, then there are wild horses all over the place who are proven.

[sbutter]

There was a study done on TB broodmares and the results were interesting. The mare's chief earners were usually the first 3-4 foals that she had. After that there was a decline. Obviously, this wasn't true for every horse, but for the majority it was true. I don't know if this has been noticed in other breeds that are used for very strenuous disciplines. So if we look at a mare's catalog page and see that she has already had three foals to the track and none of them have done anything, chances are that that is the best she can do (regardless of how good looking or well bred they are).

I have a pretty strong feeling that this breed will have to have a lot invested in it before everything is really established. It will take a long time before we can really say that a horse is proven, since it is a later maturing breed. In the end I think it will be worth while though.

What I am curious about is if there is some kind of evaluation that could be done when they are weanlings. For people that have been breeding kigers, what have you seen in foals at a young age that gives you a glimpse of what they could become? Conformation, movement, temperament, smarts, etc. that make you think that a particular foal is worth investing in instead of culling. Are there certain things that you think that the foal should be capable of doing (that wouldn't be detrimental to their growth) at an early age? What is something that you have noticed over the years that has been consistent with young foals and then how they turn out when they are proven?

[DianneC]

The only standard I see for "proven" in Kigers is the ability to have that certain "something" apparent in not only the first generation, but also the second and third. Charro is one of those, his grandchildren out of Calista were all superior in conformation and movement, no matter who the sire was. One of the best is a stallion that I would have loved to buy back and put in training with Kevin, Rio Canyon. But I couldn't swing the money. You can see Charro in him clearly, and Chinook as well. Unfortunately, his owner is doing nothing with him, except the occasional month with a trainer.

Steens Kiger is another, with his mark being evident in many horses of the second and even the third generation, just look at Sundance's get and Cedar's too. And the foals out of Silverado which would be third generation.
I really don't know of any Kiger that has performed in any discipline and passed on that ability to his get do the same. Perhaps it is there, but it hasn't been done.

[canadiankigers]

Kelly, how are you determining the quality of those foals? Again, the foal has to prove itself before you can call the mare proven, wouldn't you? It'd be several years before she had enough foals on the ground to call herself a proven producer, wouldn't it?

Unless proven is just being pretty...and there again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. With nothing standardized and no breed organization with a standard to judge against (or shows to out distance yourself from the competition), what have you got?

Proven has got to be more than just successfully throwing nice foals, because there are a lot of horses that have pretty babies. If that's all it takes, then there are wild horses all over the place who are proven.

Good points, I guess I didn't really express myself properly. YES!!! It takes a minimum of 4 to 6 foals to succeed in a performance situation or show ring. The mare I spoke of was a T-bred and was bred to both Q-horse and T-bred stallions. Her foals did well in both racing and performance. The best foals she threw was when bred to a T-bred named Bold Ruler, a stallion that was syndicated by Frank Vetere the owner of the Frank Veteres food chain.

[desperatehorsewife]

I really don't know of any Kiger that has performed in any discipline and passed on that ability to his get do the same. Perhaps it is there, but it hasn't been done.

This is exactly why mares need to show they've got what it takes in the show pen, along with stallions. Finding a horse with the athletic ability that Kiger Cougar had is difficult enough, but you've then got to be crossing that on some mares who possess the same inherent qualities before you can start outcrossing to lesser individuals and then back again.

If you look at most breeds out there today, you'll find that they're a combination of previously recognized breeds. When developing a new breed, the stud book is often open to other breeds that resemble what the new breed is supposed to represent. You'll see it in cats quite often, and in the beginning, you had the kiger type horses that were introduced to increase the genetic viability. (I'm not going to use the F word, lol! Type is what the original intent was, from what I can discern.)

All in all, I believe this is something that todays breeders are merely laying the foundation for. The real success likely won't come for a couple more generations (and I'm talking our grandkids, not horsey generations )

The question is, who here is willing to buy stock in someone else's horse? If Dianne's got a stallion worthy of marketing, would Kevin be willing to reduce the training fee, and would five other people be willing to step in and cover costs of campaigning that stallion over the next year or two? Is it worth it to you, for the good of the whole, to put aside campaigning your own horse in an effort to promote someone else's, so that Kigers as a whole can benefit?

[mystickiger]

Wow, since my comment in another thread brought up the question that started this thread, I guess I need to reply. Yes, there's been alot of good discussion going on here. In fact this discussion has frequented other Kiger message boards over the course of the years with much the same responses. Hopefully the time has come to implement some of these ideas.

It seems that most of us agree that "proven" has meaning and importance in both breeding and usability. I can think of a few stallions and mares that have enough foals to say that they stamp their get with a certain trait or look. I can think of only a couple that are even on their way to having their bloodlines "proven" in the usability vein. Since the owners of those horses do not post on this board, I will leave them unnamed.

As Michelle said, there are probably plenty of quality Kigers that will never have a chance to prove anything due to the situation they are in. But does the continued breeding of these animals for anything other than personal use gain the Kiger breed anything? Not in my opinion. Sure some of that is always going to be. It is time for breeders to step up and put their time and money into training. As a breeder, if your line has beautiful fluid movement, you need to capitalize on that by competing in the dressage ring. If your line shows a propensity to be cowy, then back it up with "get" that is being used as a ranch horse or even better competing in the NRCH at some level. Whether it's driving, endurance, reining, etc. the same applies. Stallions, geldings and mares all need to prove their usability to prove a line in my opinion. Discipline specific training is long over due in this breed.

IMHO, breeders and registries should be directing their energy toward getting the Kiger recognized by the USEF. That will provide the avenue to compete in many, many disciplines against other breeds and within the breed through the point system.

Karen