Rubbing

[nrly]

Riddle and Stormy, have both rubbed their manes off in spots. Stormy is worse then Riddle, Riddle has rubbed his butt and hair off his tail, both have rubbed their chest and lost hair there also.
I used baby oil on Stormy it worked but not for long, so we are trying some stuff called U Lock (I think) and it is working on them it relieves the itch, kills the parasite that is causing it like the no seeums, and promotes hair growth...They both have stopped rubbing, we have to clean the areas every 3 days and apply librely. none of my other horse's have this problem. all are wormed and it is done on time every 8 weeks...If we can not get rid of it and get their hair back we will call the vet...Has anyone dealt with anything like this...No change in their feed, or water...that is why we feel it is a parasite...on their skin...

[angelsdream]

Nola, Check out this thread. I had posted it under a different one here.

chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=155469

[nrly]

thanks , I read that before will try that, and let you know...

[J]

Nola, I am in the same boat you are right now. Sundance has rubbed most of his mane out, rubbed most of the hair off his shoulders, has a bald spot on top of his rear and his midline is a mess!

I have tried a multitude of topicals, fly sprays, shampoos, calm coat....etc. I am now waiting for my order of equimax. He will get the double dose and if that doesn't cut it....it will be a Vet call for me also.

He has no change in his feed and he did not have this problem last year.

[DianneC]

Wow, that's a really severe case. Sounds like an allergy to something, does he have any bumps?

[Michelle Clarke]

I know alot of you are tired of hearing this, but you REALLY need to look past the effect of what is going on and get to the cause.

I have been around Spanish horses for 20 years now and it is a common thing that begins to happen in respone to the immune system going out of whack due to a build up of toxins in the body. Feed and over vaccinating are the two biggest culprits.

We have been able to get rid of this issue in many many many horses over the years by changing first what the base problem is, then detoxing, the a rebuild of the immune system.

Understand that even though feed may have not changed, it can mean the toxins are finally building up to a level that the body cannot take anymore. The liver is overtaxed and all the crap builds up in the blood stream, then the immune system gets tired and worn out (or starts attacking anything in the body from over stimulus - auto-immune disease), then things start to get ugly quick. One of the first ways a body tries to rid itself of toxins is through the feet (brittle, cracking, toe diving), the next is the skin (rubbing, allergies, hives). After that the internal organs.

This is very important: when you just take care of the EFFECTS of an issue such as this (re: stopping the itching), you may erradicate the outward signs - but now it goes somewhere else - like internal, where you can't see it and everything seemingly appears okay until the insides start to break down.

Western medicine handles it by taking care of the outward effects. Shots (which you can't do long term) and the suppossed vit/min supplement that is RX...it is RX for a reason. It holds a chemical in it (I will try to find the info I finally found on that stuff in regards to the synthetic chemical compound in it). So on the outside, you are seeing results, while in reality, you are adding MORE toxins to the body.

I am not going here again to start yet another blasting session from some that do not agree - trust me! I know you don't agree and I am glad that you got things worked out, but all I am saying is that owners need to begin to educate themselves and look out side the box for the betterment of their horses.

[J]

Gosh, guys...sorry I haven't been back to post

Sundance has no bumps that would look or feel hive related. What he had was crusty and scabby from scratching and kicking himself Now that we have had some cold days, he has gotten better. Still itchy but at least his fur is coming back in.

I do not vaccinate and I don't normally worm....maybe once a year. I don't have horses coming and going so I don't see a need for it.

I was thinking it was sweet itch and that critter filia something, where the migrate and cause itchiness. Going with that in mind, I just wormed him 3 days ago, based on info on another web page, with a double dose of Equimax. They say double dose him again in 2 weeks. If it's related to the little critters this should help. They also suggested adding flax seed so I have been grinding up 1 cup or so per day and adding it.

Before that we were simply using topicals...yes, less than a band aid here, but I was trying anything. I mixed up a vaseline with camphor and calm coat. I tried horsemans dream, staright aloe, tri-tec spary, straight calm coat (which has tea tree and lavendar in it). Shampoo him and probably some things I can't remember.

He isn't on any formulated feed. He gets the basics. 1 cup each: alfalfa pellets (I added this last month as I include it during winter only), orchard pellets, BOSS and 2 cups whole oats. Local grass hay. This has been his staple since I got him and never a problem has he had.

He does get supplements. Up until early this year he was on Equerry's choice. I switched him to Dyanamite back in February-ish. As of late summer when this problem was getting bad, I pulled him off Dynamite and put him back on Equerry's thinking maybe it was related to that. However, it does not appear to have made a significant change.

So Michelle...I am game for anything. You tell me where I should start. I'll give it shot. What should I remove from his feeding program? What should I add? When you say toxins...what are you thinking? How do I detox him?

Talk to me

[kimk]

Janet,
Dynamite carries a wonderful product for detox called Herbal Tonic. Email me for more info if interested.
Kim

[Michelle Clarke]

Janet, let me go over your stuff tonight when I have more time...there are certain herbs that work better for some horses during a detox than others, depending on what the focus of the detox is and the history of the horse - plus you have to do it for a full blood cycle, 12 weeks. I would be curious first to see if the deworming helps, that way you can eliminate that from your list of possible causes.

Off the top of my head, there could be something seasonal in the pasture that aggrevates (or causes) the issue. Also could be the fertilizer in the hay or pellets. I remember looking a few times at the Dynomite supplements and there were ingredients in there that I know my horses react to, including soy. Even though you took him off it, there may still be some left over toxins that need to come out.

While Tea tree has many benefits, it should only be used short term, as it is too stimulating to the skin and can aggrevate it and cause swelling.

Michelle

PS. here is a sneak peek at our new venture....
www.wildmustangmud.com/

[J]

I still offer him the dynamite free choice minerals, but I have him back on Equerry's. They hay I am feeding is non-fertilized as far as I am aware. I was told they didn't fertilize this year, although they have in past years.

I have not tried the herbal tonic yet....if my next regimine doesn't work, I'll order it and try it as I will be needing some 2:1 by then.

It's weird that this year is the first time and only time I have had this problem.

I haven't used any tea tree mixes on him in about 4 weeks as things seemed to calm down, fur was coming in and he wasn't rubbing as bad.

I have ruled out fungus or mites as Dusty is perfectly fine and they share everything.

[kimk]

Michelle,
Some Dynamite products do indeed contain soy, in the form of whole extruded soybean, not by product or processed soy. All grains and plant product used in Dynamite feeds are also grown chemically free. Many animals ( humans included ) show allergies during testing to certain plant products as a result of chemical residue. If you more thoroughly researched Dynamite and thier products, rather than just "looking into" them you could possibly make a more educated statement against the products, although I doubt that you would. I've done exactly the same thing you are doing and have been the ultimate naysayer, but Dynamite truly does have a superior healthier product.
In so many cases, less is more.
Kim

[Michelle Clarke]

Kim, I understand what you are saying, and I know alot of folks have great success with those products. However, I know plenty who do not and once they are taken off of them - basically because of being proccessed, they do alot better and we have seen nice changes in the horses. Was it the product or the simple fact that we just started over and went with a more natural diet - I can't say. But none of the people went back to it because they had better results - totally their choice.

I have also tried some of the supplements on horses here and was not thrilled with the results or had adverse affects. The second our purebred mares (and some of the Luso crosses) are on any amount of soy (having estrogenic properties), they get flat evil! Now, I had some positive results with a proud-cut gelding on one of the products containing soy! I really did not want to get into specifics, as I said, I do know alot of people who like the products and I sure don't have a problem with it!

The first thing I always recommend with a horse that is having an issue, is to take them off any and all proccessed products to at least have a starting point and begin eliminating things one by one.

By all means, try the Dynamite products!

I also did not see on the Dynamite page about the Herbal Tonic being a detox - do they advertise it as so? I just saw it stated to "support normal and healthy digestion & gut health". I am not being smart here, just help me to know how this is used as a detox...it is not even used for a full blood cycle. I can surely see that if it heals up any gut dysbiosis, that it could be of benefit. Also if it helps with any leaky gut symptoms....which could be quite possible depending on what is in it.

It has been hard to find any real information on their products...

[Michelle Clarke]

Janet, the hay pellets you use could also have some kind of fertilizer on it, but from what you describe with your horse and the fact of no vaccs, proccessed feeds, etc. , I would say a standard detox - liver, kidneys, lymphatic system, would be in order.

Usually an outbreak on the skin is the bodies way of trying to rid itself of toxins (could even be environmental or something in the pasture or shavings even - maybe even a topical product like shampoo or flyspray). A diuretic will assist in the toxins leaving through the urine instead - this should be a part of any good detox formula.

ABC plus has a good detox, though I have not used it in years and do not recall the ingredients, but I was happy with it 8 years or so ago. If you are dealing with some kind of chemical toxin, then there are better ingredients over others that target that type of issue.

My next question is how long have you had him and what was his vac/deworm/nutrition program before...? That could help in narrowing down his issue.

I also think that we may be dealing with something seasonal related, as you said it gets better in cooler weather, correct? If it is insect related, then we have to look at what makes him a target....or what the underlying issue is that is making him allergic - usually (agian) back to a high level of toxins and the body cannot defend on all ends.

You can start with a general detox, as stated above, just make sure you stay on it for a full blood cycle (12 weeks). If you are not sure about using the ABC stuff, I can make you up one (the cost is usually around $1/day, so $30/month), depending on the herbs used.

A full detox/rebuild takes one year and 12 weeks...first a general cleansing and preparing the gut, then a series of herbs to support and strengthen each system in the body. This is based on the Five Element Theory in Chinese medicine. I'll have an article on that on our Mustang Mud site soon.

Anyway, just some ideas.

[J]

Thanks Michelle. I take a look at the ABC plus and see what that is all about.

I have had Sundance for......2 years (maybe 3? time flies) now I think? Not sure what his prior protocol was, but I assume it was the standard since he was the KMA raffle colt, twice and was hauled here and there as part of showing him off So I'll go with standard Vaccinations and wormers since he was hauled across state lines and into various facilities.

Like I said I had zero issues with him up until this year. The only change in his feeding program was switching from Equerry to Dynamite and I had some hog fuel hauled in.

The itchiness did not seem to coincide with the hog fuel although if it is toxicity build up..maybe so? The rubbing and craziness started around June, got progressive worse up through September and seems to have tapered off now. He still rubs, but not like the crazy psycho horse he was during summer.

I have one more double dose of equimax next week. I will give that a little time and if we are still not better, I'll try the detox in January.

[DianneC]

The improvement with the change in the weather makes me wonder about sweet itch. Since we're in the NW we have it here. Flax has been shown to have a very good result. There is an article in horse.com about a 42 day trial. Given the other benefits of flax it would be worth a try. It can be ground fresh or bought in a stabilized form, I like ADM More Glo, or Michelle soaks hers overnight (Michelle, jump in here).