Help with mane and tail goop??

[angelsdream]

Wonder if anyone else experiences this. Lakota has what looks like dandruff in her mane and tail - heavy. I treated it with 50/50 listerine/baby oil to kill any fungus, but it came back. Not sure if its the humidity and heat down here or what. Not sure what to do to get rid of it. I guess it shows up more in her mane cause its black. Any suggestions would help - thanks

[Michelle Clarke]

The skin is the horses' largest organ - it reflects what is going on inside. It can be allergic reactions to stall bedding or laying in dried manure outside in a paddock; maybe something that is being used on the mane/tail as far as shampoo or hair conditioners; fly sprays; too many unnatural foods being fed and a build up of toxins; allergies to parasites; and not a popular thing folks like to hear - vaccinations. This then makes the skin suceptible to a variety of fungal and bacterial and parasitic infections. Mostly they are due to parasites doing what they do best - taking advantage of a weakened host.

Yes, you can treat it topically, but also address what the underlying issue is, or it will forever be an issue and most likely get worse, not better. Usually when you put a bandade on something, you cause the problem to go somewhere else and show up another way, until eventually it goes internal and begins to affect the nervous system, the immune system and the internal organs.

Get ahold of a real herbal shampoo for problem skin - no additives, chemicals, etc. and give a good, deep cleaning, making sure to get a small comb and bring out all the dead skin and droppings - which is what you are seeing. Then use another topical treatment (all natural...!) to prevent secondary infections while you figure out where the original issue really lays.

I have alot of people who buy horses from me, vaccinate the crap out of them and begin to have a host of issues, including scruff in the mane and tail; outbreaks of sweet itch, rubbing out of the mane/tail, and so on. I have seen it take up to two years of not vaccinating to totallly eliminate the issues - with no other changes being implemented.

Diet is another place to really analize....

[angelsdream]

Thanks Michelle. I'll find me some shampoo. I do agree it could be something on the inside also. The only thing she gets is triple crown lite (handful is all) and the total equine supplements. That's all she gets as far as feed, etc. I havent' vaccinated her since Ive had her because she was fully vaccinated before she left, but Im like you, I dont like to vaccinate for everything under the sun. I just did the double dose of Equimax (worming thread) to make sure thats not it. I do notice she rubs her tail just a little bit, nothing to wear to wears her tail off, I thought it was just when she was in heat. But either way, I did the dose of equimax to make sure that wasnt the cause. Its so frustrating - cause I know it means something isnt right. Just narrowing it down is the issue now.

[Michelle Clarke]

Sounds like you are on the right track. If she is rubbing her tail some, yes it could be the scrunge or heat cycle, but also check between her teats for smegma. Mares need cleaning down their - I usually use baby wipes.

[dara]

pinworm can cause tail rubbing too.

[angelsdream]

Still working on this. Here mane looks just like dandruff and her tail has flakes of skin chipping off along with the dandruff..? Im looking for a herbal shampoo now but I still think there's something else going on. Could it be a fungus that just has never gotten killed?

[Leesa]

Michelle,

Could you quantify "vaccinate the crap out of them"? Do you not vaccinate your horses at all or do you just do less and maybe only vaccination for certain diseases?

[Michelle Clarke]

Leesa, I do not vaccinate and have not done so for 18 years now. Most things that you vaccinate for are treatable. There has not been a case of Potomic horse fever in like 20 years(which the vaccination is incomplete and short lived....only reducing clinical signs, but not preventing); the influenza has way too many strains to even guess which your horse is exposed to (and you have to vac for that every three months to get coverage)...kind of like getting a flue shot. Tetnus - well, what is the first thing your vet does when you horse gets a deep wound - give a tetnus booster whether they have had the shot or not! Tetnus is very treatable/preventable both topically and internally.

Many shots are combined and are being given way too much. Horses develop natural antibodies and it has even been shown in people that they should get tetnus every ten years, so why is this given usually twice a year to horses?

Anyway, the fact is that over vaccinating causes alot of issues in horses. I was pleasantly surprised the other day when I read one of the big vaccination companies recommends NOT vaccinating (or deworming) your bred mare during the first 60 days of conception because all of the fetuses organs are being formed at that point.

Many things, like even the EPM protazoa, the horse has been exposed to and develops it's own immunity (like strangles, which is basically strep throat...treat it properly and even if they abbcess out (which in that case, they have up to a 10 year natural immunity), it is not by any means fatal.

For awhile when they thought that West Nile was contagious through the host, the dog/cat food companies where not using horse meat for fear of passing it through. They had dones studies and found that 9 out of 10 horses had already been exposed - and that was what, 8-9 years ago?

The last time I vaccinated everyone 18 years ago, I had a host of issues. Severe to mild reactions, colics, hives - one horse has such a reaction he choked from his airways restricting. When we first moved here to this ranch, it used to be a vet facility, I was fearful of what was here. I used prodigy and did a test group of 10 horses (different age groups), and the reactions were so bad I never did the booster or gave the shots to anyone else. I am still seeing those effects on some of the horses years later. Many of which is the development of sweet itch; I see a huge connection with that. It has taken Desi over 2 years for that to go away on it's own. This is the first summer we did not have that issue with him.

Other issues include swollen necks (which many folks take for fat deposits), dropped immune systems (development of ringworm, warts), eye issues (more weeping, allergy symptoms and suceptability to infection from flies), toe-diving when they move (because the lamnia is attempting to detox and sore, so they don't want to land on the heel, they land toe first), joint stiffness, snots/coughs, temperment changes and lets not even talk about the WN vac that has caused so many fetal abnormalties and deaths (plus mare/stallion infertility!).

My mare Chilli, which I bred and raised (now 12 years old) had never been vaccinated until I sold her almost 3 years ago - then she has had everything under the sun. Both her foals since then have been born down on the pasterns in the back and one, the left hind leg has a permanent turn to it to the outside. Both are more skittish in an "off" emotional way (they are out of different stallions). I have six of her foals that I have bred and none have any of these issues. I have half sibs to the stallions she was bred to the last two years, and they do not have any of these issues. Chilli also got pigeon fever this year (out of the 80 horses that are here) and their immune system has to be pretty weak to contract this as it is not a strong bacteria....her colt also go it (in his poor little sheath!).

The gal that bought Ora four years ago has finally realized she is not a "mare" person, so I now have Ora back (I buy back all my horses I sell if they come up for sale!). She has no mane, no tail along half the bone, her neck is swollen and raw, her tail head and hindend is swollen and raw, her eyes are weepy and swollen, she is toe-diving horribly, and has rank heat cycles. She is going on a major detox and then a blood cleansing for 12 weeks to hopefully get her balanced again. (BTW, if anyone is looking for a GREAT mare, who rides off your thighs and stirrup weight, goes when you take a deep breath, stops when you exhale and relax, gives to the bit with your finger tips, does every obstacle with no issues, trail rides (alone or in groups), moves cows, kids can ride safely, you can pony off her, throw a rope off her, canters to you in the roundpen, does lead changes at liberty, pirouettes, lead changes, spins, quick stops, spanish walk and you can ride out of a pen bridleless...let your granny ride (and lays down by pulling on her mane) - give me a call!).

You also have to understand we are talking about these mustangs who have no exposure for hundreds of generations to vaccinations. Their immune systems are so naturally strong, that this is quite the shock to them. Balanced diets, immune boosters when neccesary and a watchful eye to head any changes off quickly is what is needed.

Sorry, more info than you wanted I am sure, but something I am passionate about!

[angelsdream]

WOW! Thanks Michelle. What about horse's that have always been vaccinated? Do you just stop the vaccinating - anything you do to help boost the immune system or just give the horse time to cleanse itself and treat if something happens?

Also - if you dont vaccinate and you take your horses out a lot - trail, shows, parades, etc to where they are around alot of other horses, do you do anything?

All of this makes so much sense. I have always thought we over vaccinate, ourselves and our animals. I took my dogs to be groomed earlier this year and the vet wanted me to get them all kinds of shot before they would see them, so I said, ok, what do they HAVE to have then she narrowed it down to rabies and kennel cough- which rabies I had done already but I normally dont vaccinate them every year for all that stuff and they've never had any issues. I thought good grief - they are charging people an arm and a leg for vaccines that anyone can get at the pet store #1 and #2 for shots they dont even need. And to top all that off, my male yorkie came back with an eye infection that I had to treat with a topical ointment, which I got at the pet store. He had never had anything wrong with him - I believe its mostly the vets who push all these vaccines on people.

I have always given my horses once a year the 5way, Flu-Rhino, WNV. Even though I did, both of my horses still got a cold last year. SO, something to think about for sure. I just worry - I know people around me that I meet at shows, parades, trails, etc dont take care of there horses and as much as I go with my horses, I just dont want them to be more susceptible in picking stuff up.

Also - Something else to think about that has crossed my mind - I know that mustangs in the wild are a lot healthier than when we bring them in and start feeding them, vaccinating them, etc You can see that in the pictures people take of them in the wild. There mane is long and flowing, coat is shiny and healthy, nice and fat - but they are also not exposed to everything like they are once they are tame and are with us. They are closed off to all of that in the wild.

[spanishsagegrullas]

Tetnus is very treatable/preventable both topically and internally.

I have very little time, but feel I must address a serious misstatement here
on this thread. TETANUS is absolutely a grave illness, and NOT especially
treatable. If you have ever seen an animal in the throes of tetanus, caused
by the bacteria clostridium tetanii, you would know this. Tetanus causes what
is called tetany, a progressive paralyzation of the muscles in the body. Of particular
concern are the muscles which become paralyzed prevent breathing from taking place. Even administration of antibiotics are not immediately effective. Only if one recognizes and diagnoses tetanus in the extremely early stages would antibiotics have much effect at all.

There was an afflicted dog I took care of in ICU at UCDavis Vet Med Teaching Hospital who had to be on a ventilator, and not only needed the ventilator to breathe, it had severe problems with blood pressure regulation (also effected by muscle paralyzation) and required constant regulation of such with dopamine. It was an intense situation, requiring almost full time attention of the veterinarians in addressing and treating changes in the dogs physiological status, and absolute vigilance on our part to notice rapidly occurring life-threatening changes to call the doctors. After several days, the dog was euthanized.

If a dog, which is one tenth the size of a horse, was this intensive
of a problem, what would you imagine the treatment, and cost (and I would bet the very very poor prognosis) of dealing with a horse is? Not only do you have the medical challenges, but the physical challenges of maintaining the proper circulation and muscle tone of an unconscious, recumbent horse, likely on a huge water bed due to the weight of its body pressing on the lower side, but also the need to turn the horse every four hours to prevent pressure sores from building up, and fluid from building up in the lung of the lower side.

Vets will routinely give a tetanus booster if the horse is cut, but in my
experience if I tell the vet that the horse already has had their vaccines
(they have no records since I do all my vaccines myself) they don't. Tetanus vaccines are not given twice a year, but only once.

If you immunize your pregnant mares within a month before foaling, the foals will get the maximum amount of immunoglobulins for tetanus and other diseases. Thus, even a newborn foal will not need any tetanus boosters, even if cut in the first few days, weeks, or months, if it received proper immunity through colostrum. The best time to vaccinate the mares is this time, rather than in the first few months of pregnancy.

The reason one does not see many diseases that there are vaccines for is
because so many people vaccinate. That is how polio had been pretty much wiped out in humans, until people stopped vaccinating their children.

Please realize that Tetanus is not anything to dismiss. I would hate to have any horse suffer the effects of tetanus with people thinking that it is.

Diane P.
Spanish Sage Ranch

[JoanMRK]

Thanks for all the info Michelle, I always eat up all the things you have to say on vaccinating. I have a holistic vet for my dogs and cats (small animal vet) and love that he goes the natural route. I wish I could find one for my horses.

I'm sorry to hear about Ora, since I found your site years ago I always really admired her, she is beautiful! I wish I had the $$ for her, she sounds like a wonderful mare.

[JoanMRK]

PS: my daughter is now 14 mos. and I refuse to vaccinate her, I never had vaccines because my mom didn't believe in them either. I know that they have caused many problems with people, especially all the weird auto-immune diseases that are popping up here and there.

[nrly]

good for you Joan, in the UK they do not vaccinate till a child is 3 because we are born with a immune system and I do believe that Vaccines interfere with that, I did vaccinate my 1st child,then when my 2nd child my son got the mumps even after he received his first set I stopped and my other 2 children, did not get them at all... and I believe a horse or any animals have their own immune system, I was stupid when I got back into horse's and listened to others and started giving vaccines. But I no long vaccinate, an old timer says let a horse be a horse, now if it was a deadly threat he then will call the vet and if need be will vaccinate that horse,, but for the most part he believes you do not need to Vaccinate, and they can take care of themselves... and I do have to agree, so as I said we no long vaccinate, we do worm, and that is it, and I am trying to learn holistic medicine for our animals...

[twisting]

Horses, and children, who aren't vaccinated are protected by what is know as herd immunity. Because the horses/people around them are vaccinated it creates a barrier of protection. If your kid is surrounded by children who have been vaccinated it's not really an issue to not vaccinate. Their chances of getting sick are still slim. However, the CDC is seeing diseases that were once very rare become more common as small communities of people choose not to vaccinate thier children. Children in communities with other unvaccinated children are succeptable to these diseases, as they don't have herd protection. These unvaccinated children can infect other people whose immunity has faded, who could not be vaccinated for auto-immune reasons or who weren't fully protected. (no vaccine has a 100% protection rate)

There are risks to vaccinating, I agree, but the benefits far outweigh the risks.

[Michelle Clarke]

This is always such a hot, debated topic....unfortunately, I have limited time this weekend - today we have to go set up for a horse expo and then tomarrow we will be there all day.

However, I would like to share these links I give folks when they join our program, or buy one of my horses. Some of it is heavy reading, some is good advice from vets. Educating yourself will help you make the right decisions for both you and your horse, and that is what I advocate! BTW, my son is not vaccinated and he has been a healthy boy his whole life with rarely even a cold (which there is no shots for!); he is twelve. The protective barrier of vaccinated children is a good theory, but hard to prove I would guess.

That is one of the things I belived with moving here to Texas after being in Chicago. I figured since everyone vaccinated in Chicago that my horses were safer being not vaccinated. Truth be told, with so many people bouncing around in boarding barns, they were highly at risk. Then, moving to Texas, where alot of folks do not vaccinate horses to begin with (and it has nothing to do with a holistic approach or keeping the immune system up and healthy! The ranch we moved to had been a vet facility for over 30 years...every possible thing under the sun is most likely living in the flooring, walls and land here! We don't have any issues here either, even with other horses in and out for training, clinics and lessons.

Enjoy!!

www.harmanyequine.com/vaccines.stm

www.wingedwolf.citymax.com/page/page/1303049.htm

www.dogtorj.com/id14.html