Surgeries/Castration

[stlkigers]

Michelle (and anyone else that would like to answer):

I just thought I'd ask what you use on your colts that are getting castrated? Do you do anything in advance, like give them Arnica? After the fact?

Cordero will be gelded eventually and I just thought I'd like to hear what everyone does so that it's the easiest possible surgery.....

Thanks!

Angela

[kimk]

Arnica is a great idea Angela. I also use colloidal silver and probiotics (orally) for a week before and after. And LOTs of excersise at the trot ( 20 min. 2 x day ) to keep the incision open and draining. I've never had one get infected. ( knock on wood ! )
Kim

[Michelle Clarke]

You can't use Arnica on open stuff topically, only internally...just clarfying in case someone does not know! Rescue Remedy before the surgery and after. A few drops of Lemongrass and Lavendar essential oils on a rubber gloved finger and rubbed around the incisions plus the incision itself to keep draining open (pull any nasty scabs off, but not the granulation that happens later on). Hose daily, but not "up" into it so you don't push yuck back in - just hose the sheath with a gentle spray. For hydro therapy to be worth anything, the water has to be under 55 degress and you have to hose for a full 20 minutes. We usually walk the first few days, even if they are turned out as they may not move like they need to, then go to trotting some.

After the incision is healing and alot of the swelling is gone, use the oils and massage up high on both sides of the sheath...follow each along each cord. This will help keep the cord from attaching to a muscle in the inner thigh. I have worked on many geldings that have a lameness or shortness in one hind leg and usally this is a gelding scar. Once it is broken up, the lameness imediately goes away. When they get older, you actually have to go up into the sheath - waaaaaay up, and it is alot harder to break it up (not to mention having your arm halfway up thier privates and not get kicked!!).

Kims suggestions are great on the colliodal silver and probiotics. Colliodal silver for infection and probiotics for stomach stuff because most vets give a hefty shot of antibiotic for "just in case"...however, probiotics are a thing of the past and prebiotics are much more effective. I am still studying up on this new information! I use the KLPP from KAM animal services. It is live cultures.

[nrly]

wow never heard of this but it is so good to know. Cause of we have a colt from Flashy he will be gelded.

[rubymountainkigers]

In the June 2008 issue of Veterinary Practice News pp20-21, there is an article titled "Top 10 Holistic Medicine Traps" by Narda Robinson DVM. It lists collodial silver as number 4.

The article states "Collodial silver has no place in veterinary medicine. Ingested silver accumulates in every organ and can induce irreversible neurolic toxicity. (Mirsatarri,SM, Hammond RR, Sharpe MD, et al. Myoclonic status epilepticus following repeated oral ingestion of colldial silver. Neurology, 2004;62(8):1408-1410.)

Per the FDA Center for Veterinary Medicine, "FDA is not aware of any substantial scientific evidence that supports the safe and effective use of collodial silver ingredients or silver salts for any animal condition." (US Food and Drug Administration Center for Veterinary Medicine, CVM Update: Collodial silver not approved. Feb 12, 1997. Obtained on 4-26-08 at www.fda.gov/cvm/CVM Update/silver.html)

Tim

[kimk]

whatever

[Michelle Clarke]

Yes, the FDA has not recognized any studies that have been done, just like alot of other things they choose for whatever reason ($$??) to ignore. If they don't approve of it, it means that no one has spent billions of dollars researching it in the very strict way that the FDA will approve.

Many herbs/alternative methods do work and do help with certain issues. This is proven time and time agian by not only holistic type vets, but also medical doctors. The government has been trying for years to find a way to regulate herbs and such, they just have not been able to do it yet. Once they do, you will see many of these things come back out and be way more $$ and you will have to go through a doctor to get it.

They did it with animal chiropratic. Many of the western med vets poo-pooed it, until it was regulated and now all of a sudden, you have vets learning it and charging over double what a normal chiropractor would.

There is a "trap" with the Collidal silver. It has to be made correctly in order to be affective. It is hard to find a brand that is consistant with quality. That is why alot of folks make it at home - not difficult. My vet makes and carries it.

Personally, I have used it and had some good results and sometimes not very good results...was it quality? amounts? or just did not compliment the issue I was having, I don't know. But, we find that with western medicine also. Pennicillian is an approved drug by the FDA, however, it kills ALL pathogens, not just the bad ones, so you are also doing damage as you do good. That is how people get immune to antibiotics and then begin to have other issues, like stomach problems, when taking too much too often.

We have a unique situation here because many times due to the sheer number of horses, we will have the same issue come up with a few horses. Time and time again, I choose to treat each horse differently (herbs/immune boosters/western med) and note the results, time to recover, etc. Across the board, I have not had one time that western med came out the better choice. Sometimes there is no difference between the horses in recovery times and overall health, they weigh out the same.

Last year we had 5 horses come down with pigeon fever and treated some with a colliodal silver/aloe mix for flushing and some with idone mix the vet recommended. The ones with CS mix healed quicker, no skin irritation and no lumpy scar tissues. The ones with iodine mix took longer to get rid of the yellow bacteria, the skin got red, swollen and irritated and they have little lumps where the holes where.

I have used it internally for some issues (though I mostly use it externally), but I am aware of it not passing through the system and watch amounts on each horse over the years.

So in my personal testing, I have found it to be beneficial for certain issues.
Thanks for sharing!

[rubymountainkigers]

I agree that there are alot of benefits to be gained through alternative medicine both used by itself or complimentary to western medicine. It is becoming more widely accepted in mainstream veterinary medicine. Colo. State University College of Veterinary Medicine is offering a short course this summer for veterinarians and vet techs. They have included alternative/holistic medicine into their veterinary curriculum. I have worked with a holistic vet out of Klamath Falls, OR and in some cases her treatments worked where western veterinary medicine fell short. In some instances I expect that there may be a significant placebo effect. Unfortunately, as you stated much of the research done is money driven. The interest and the need for the research may exist but there are no means for funding the study so nothing gets done and we are left to rely on colloquial information. I agree the treatment should be individually tailored to each individual and accurate observations made and detailed and accurate records kept.

I also believe that a person should be exposed to as much information as possible so they can make informed decisions. This can be extremely difficult as new information emerges all of the time.

With holistic medicines there isn't alot of controlled studies as to their effectiveness or side affects, but one must be aware that the possibility exists for these to occur the same as they do in traditional western medicine. With the increased interest among veterinarians towards these methods I think more information will emerge. I would imagine that topical application of collodial silver would carry a lower risk of neurological complications than internal use. Again the amount accumulated over time would be significant in whether or not nerological dysfunction would occur as a result of it's use. I just think it is something to be aware of.

I enjoyed reading about your experiences with various methods of treatments.

Tim

[stlkigers]

Thanks for all the advice....I did have Cord gelded and he did very well....I used Arnica (internally of course) once again and gave him a bit of probiotics as well. He had very little swelling. This is the 3rd time I have used Arnica pre and post castration.....A friend of mine that trains horses for a living has tried it now with her colts (and some much older studs that had to be gelded) and she too is now a believer...With arnica being so cheap and easy to administer (just dropping some pellets in grain; they are the size of a grain of dry rice) why not try it this way before going to something that may affect the kidneys and/or stomach???

I have heard too many people and animals have positive results from holistic things to not believe that there are aspects of holistic medicine that work....I was a 4th year pharmacy major before I changed degrees in college and there are just too many reasons not to try it! Plus many of todays meds have their roots in holistic medicine of the past. I believe the greatest problem with it (as well as the vitamin industry) is that you have to use a manufacturer who cares about quality and consistency of active ingredients.

Angela

[nrly]

is it true if I use herbs and I do not know what I am doing that I can hurt them, I ask cause I want to know where to go to learn about herbs and such,please tell me where I go the get this information.

[Michelle Clarke]

Nola, there is alot of good info on line and some books I can recommend. Using herbs in small amounts (like a handful 1-2xs/day) is enough to kick start the system into responding to the issues at hand. You can mix up to five herbs or so in that handful....some herbs you use at half doses and an equine herb book will help you with that. I usually mix up a container of 5-6 herbs that compliment each other and feed 1 cup 2xs/day on top of feed.

Once you get to know your herbs and what will help with certain issues, you can use them at larger doses individually. I keep a fresh batch of Calendula on hand at all times for inflamation issues and throw a full handful of that in a couple times a day for an acute problem until the swelling is gone for 2-3 days. But YES, you have to be careful and only use herbs that are considered safe for horses and make sure they are especially safe for pregnant mares when applicable.

I prefer organic dried herbs, but sometimes use extracts.

The Practical Horse Herbal by Victoria Ferguson
Feeding Herbs to Horses by Wendy & Terry Jennings
Herbal Horsekeeping by Robert McDowell ***

***www.herbal-treatments.com.au/

Great place for dried herbs, extracts and essential oils:
www.mountainroseherbs.com/

I am sure Kim will have some great input here also...

[nrly]

thanks Michelle. after this issue with flashy I also have come to the conclusion I will not have a mare vet checked(I may change my mind when it is time) for I feel that is what stressed her out so bad that she absorbed her foal. Horse's did fine with birthing long before their were vets, I was told to let her be a horse,she knows what to do, and I feel that man was right.

[Michelle Clarke]

Nola, I understand what you are saying but while they have been foaling for thousands of years without our help, they are also in a domestic situation that is unique to being a horse. You can also bet there are many foals and mares that die during birthing or mares that re-absorb or abort in the wild (or in a barn where everything is done "right"...). I know of one wild herd that was plagued by big cats and there were areas of thier range that was just littered with foal skeletons (even up in trees). Think of the wild horse population - how many mares there are - and what the real numbers would be if each mare foaled a healthy, live foal each year.

For over two weeks we sat up and watched Picasa night after night waiting for that foal to come. Yes, it crossed my mind many many times that she has always been fine, mares do this all the time, etc etc etc - go to bed and let it be...however, watching her, she had odd behavior at night, the foal was not active after dinner time or in the stocks, plus her belly never really dropped. Last week she began to foal (was rolling alot to try to get the foal into position), he came half way out, took two shallow breaths and died. He never got turned into the right birthing position - his back leg was forward and he got stuck in the birth canal. The umbilical cord was most likely pinched, which hind sight is a good thing because he died quickly and did not have to live through the trauma of waiting for the vet and Picasa walking around with him dangling out alive and then being in pain and dying anyway.

It was the most horrifying experience I have ever been through. The worst of it being this poor mare standing over her foal waiting for him to get up. I asked my vet what I needed to learn in order to prevent this from happening again and she said even if you know what you are doing, you have a two minute window to get the foal back in and turned - or sticking your arm up there and putting the leg up against the abdomen and not getting it broke as she contracts. Most foals presented this way do not make it.

There has been quite a few times where the front of the foal has been presented wrong and I reposition or help the mare get the foal all the way out. In fact this year with Sage, she had the colt all the way out and he did not break the placenta to begin breathing - I did. I don't know if he would have made it if I was not there.

When you said last week that Flashy was holding her tail up and had discharge - she was most likely in heat. When your vet palpated her, she was soft inside because of that fact, probably not because there is something wrong in there. There are many reasons a mare absorbs and next time she comes into heat, you need to get her cultured to make sure there is no bacteria in there and take care of it now to save her reproductive life later. Your vet needs to be proactive here...if not, find a vet that specializes in reproduction and move forward.

Nola, don't beat yourself up over this. Take it as a learning experience that will help you and others in the future know what steps to take to make the next one better.

[fantasykiger]

Michelle leans towards alot of holistic methods of treatment and likes her herbal therapy . As a breeder of very fine horses I am sure she works hand in hand with a very good reproduction vet as well. My reproduction vet is a wealth of knowledge coming from the huge breeding facilities of Kentucky (before he headed out west). Most breeders I know work side by side with a good vet. That does not mean you can not incorperate holistic treatments and herbal supliments in with their daily care, if you so choose. I do think before you do you should do the proper research.

[DianneC]

Once you have a couple of seasons under your belt and you know your mares and know what is "normal" then you can consider doing without vet checks. But until then they will teach you a lot. I'm still learning from mine although I don't do vet checks now. Although I may reconsider that since I was so worried about Calista and wouldn't have lost so much sleep if I had had a real vet check instead of a blood test that wasn't accurate.
Gosh Michelle! that must have been so terrible to go through! I'm so sorry for your tragic loss.