I have a dream

[vaquero7x]

Hi to all---I wanted to share some of my goals for the future and I would like to read some of your opinions. I would really love for the Kiger horse to be recognized in the future to be one of the top breeds of the world such as the Lusitano, especially the Veiga bloodlines that have been bred since 1880 and are of such high quality, so high that no mares are sold. In order for the Kiger to reach such level in the future we must work very hard and very intelligently to make this happen. This means that we must educate ourselves continuously on genetics, proper training techniques, proper nutrition etc. We must never do any "back-yard" breeding; we must select and breed only the best. I have been fortunate to own 4 mares of what I consider to be some of the finest Kigers that I have seen and I have such love for them that I believe they have great potential to do great things in the future. We must train them and have them compete against the best breeds whether that is reining, cutting, dressage, etc., for the only way to know what they are capable of is to make them go into the "ring of fire": the competition ring. We must start to create specific blood-lines for specific jobs and disciplines such as reining, cutting etc. I myself am interested in reining and blood-less bulfighting in the Potugese tradition called rejoneo. I will have a web page in the near future where I will have pictures of my horses and also some interesting historical facts about Iberian horses and the diverse cultures surrounding these horses. I hope to "hear" from you.

[sbutter]

I like your dream

I think it's important to set high standards and at the same time, look at reality. In order to reach the higher level, you either need to be very skilled yourself (so you can do the training) or need a lot of money (so others can do the training). I'd say 90% of kiger owners are your "typical" horse people that just enjoy kigers and look at them or ride them on the occasional trail ride. These people (I'd include myself in this group at least for now) are in every breed and don't really want to show on a large scale or regularly be in the public eye. It is mostly a financial reason (I'd love to have my kigers showing and being in serious training, but am not made of money currently) or just being content with the lack of stress and everything else that goes into showing. Instead of focusing on trying to get these people to show (current kiger owners), I am thinking that there needs to be more aim for the next spectrum of people. I'd be happy with the 90% going out and riding their horses and making sure they have the very basic training, that way "free" kigers with no training is almost unheard of. The "average" spectrum of people aren't going to be where the top kigers come from, since that isn't really a financially reasonable goal for them.

I think the current reality of kigerdom is that we have a very healthy population of your average horse owner, but a lack of professionals with outside breed experience or the means to really showcase the breed to their full potential. Instead of putting the pressure on the average person to go and show their horse or try to breed kigers because the are "endangered" breed, I think some kigers need to get in the hands of very experienced people. It won't take a lot of these people to get the job done, but enough to have a decent population of kigers between them to have enough variation in breeding stock. That way particular bloodlines are maintained and actually tried out to their full potential. Not a whole lot of people are breeding kigers right now, so I do think the breed will start to shrink. The bloodlines that are being passed on to the next generation are the ones that are still reproducing. It doesn't take long for a "name" or bloodline to die off if no one is really breeding it.

With all that being said, Spanish traits NEED to be maintained and put on top priority in order to maintain the breed heritage. Without breed standards and a real efficient/doable way to evaluate and categorize horses to maintain breed phenotype, the breed could literally become anything. Form and function go hand in hand. If we don't maintain a specific "test" for character (example: Thoroughbreds=Race horse), then the "function" of the breed becomes like "water" and just flows with the current fad or "look." It is very adaptable, but loses it's original form and purpose.

Just some thoughts I have been currently juggling
-Sarah

[michelle77]

I would love to promote the Kigers but I would do jumping and still plan on it but the one thing I am not made up of is money and time(right now anyways). Hija my Kiger mare will jump a 4ft fence from a stand still. I could not figure out how she was getting out till she jumped it right in front of me and it is not just her. From what I understand most are great jumpers. I think your vision is great and you found a great forum to join! I agree that we do need to retain the Spanish traits(sbutter) unfortunately they are changing. When you look at the Kigers 15yrs ago I think they held much stronger spanish traits then they do now. If you look at Charro compared to all other Kigers stallions now they can not hold a candle to him. The Kigers coming off the range now for the most part are much heavier and lean towards more of the qh look then what they should the Lusitano which is a very lean and versatile horse almost snake like is how I think of it (or Andalusian, which is different in conformation but still of a spanish type that Kigers have). From what I understand alot of the people who are purchasing them are wanting more of the qh type so they can compete more in the reining and sorting divisions. I love the Kigers that have the Charro look which are far and few and also why I think Michelle should open up Charro to out side breeding's (sorry Michelle) because he is 18 and his line I think needs to be in as many Kiger lines as possible. He is magic a once in a life time! I think the Kigers will in the next 10 years really take off or be forever in the back ground. I will do all I can to help in the coming years. Hija is breed to Charro and hopefully by the time the foal is ready for the shows we will be on top of our game!

[ctxkiger]

I keep hearing this term of "Back Yard Breeder" so I wanted to know what the actual definition is. The first line is pretty interesting. Here is what Wikipedia says:

Backyard Breeder is a general term, often considered derogatory, used in USA to describe people who breed animals, often without registration. In some cases the animals are inbred narrowly for looks with little regard to health.[1] The term most often is used to describe certain types of breeders of dogs and horses. The term is used in this sense by the Animal Welfare community, ASPCA, larger established breeders and breed clubs in contrast to the more positive term, "reputable breeder" that describes operations that use responsible methodology and practices.

It implies either or both of careless home breeding for non-commercial reasons or a for-profit small commercial operation that does not adhere to good breeding, care and sale practices. Larger commercial operations of a similar type that breed dogs are usually termed a puppy mill (especially in North America) or puppy farm. However, as large kennels usually require licensing, many puppy mills are licensed with the USDA.[2]

Many small breeders resent the term and its use. Some do so because they assert that they run small, but high-quality "boutique" operations. Others argue that their unregistered animals are highly desirable as companion animals and economical for ordinary people to purchase. Both groups deny that they contribute to low quality or produce unwanted animals.

This type of breeder is usually regarded by the Animal Welfare, ASPCA, and other groups as likely to exhibit one or more of the following characteristics:

Ignorance of selective breeding goals and techniques, and lack of familiarity with the breed standard of the type of animal being bred.
Exclusive focus on the breed standard involving little genetic screening or co-efficient of Inbreeding calculations.
Breeding of a working breed for appearance rather than working ability. This is a criticism also levelled at 'reputable' breeders who breed for the show ring - in some cases distinct working and show strains have emerged.
Lack of adequate veterinary care and maintenance.
Excessive breeding from individual females, to the detriment of their health.
Sale of animals with genetic disorders or undisclosed illnesses before they become evident to buyers.
Lack of screening of potential owners or the provision of suitable information to prevent buyers from purchasing an animal that may be inappropriate for them or their lifestyle.
Breeding of animals for illegitimate reasons, such as for horse slaughter or the usually illegal sports of baiting and dog fighting or to defend venues of criminal activity. Dog fanciers generally believe that such ill-bred dogs are the reason for the bad reputation of some breeds in the public perception, and the resulting breed-specific legislation. The production of "PMU foals" from pregnant mares bred solely for their urine production (used in the making of the drug Premarin) is also widely condemned due to the frequency with which the progency of such breedings are shipped directly to slaughter.
Breeding without concern for the possibility of finding homes, though commercial means or otherwise, for offspring, thus adding to the population of unwanted dogs and to the slaughter of horses for meat.

There are campaigns to reduce or eliminate this type of breeding in several countries. The primary concern of the Animal Welfare community is that this type of breeding is the major source of pet animals and that overproduction has led to overpopulation and hence to welfare issues and the putting down of animals for no other reason than the lack of suitable home. Most dog breed societies and Kennel Clubs have similar concerns but place rather more stress on issues relating to breed standardization and quality.

In the horse world, the slaughter issue is closely linked to backyard breeding.

[stormyranch]

Well stated ctxkiger!

[kimk]

Ditto what Stormyranch said, Jason! Very well said!

[michelle77]

I know what a back yard breeder is (Texas is full of them) but I am not sure why you feel the need to quote or define the meaning under this subject. Do you think that Kigers should not be bred?

[Michelle Clarke]

The good thing about the economy downfall is a cleansing of the BYB. This term is another hit on folks that breed for color, many being BYBers - yet another reason I HATE that the Kiger registries put so much emphasis on color. It is only a (small) part of the equation. It takes years to build your herd for conformity, trainability and predictability. After this is when color should be considered.

This breed is changing - for the better. A new wave of more progressive owners and breeders are on the horizon and I predict very good things for the Kigers over the next 10 years. We just need to get our crap together and work together toward the same goals. Breeders need to work together - we all have our own vision and the market is vast; plenty of room for everyone.

Michelle, I closed up breeding to Charro because I was not happy with the politics of the breed. There are a few other reasons but I am now considering certain horses and having some looser reins on Charro babies...depending....!

When I looked back at the '99 catalog this morning, I saw many more Spanish type horses than there are now. Leaner, longer legs, more elegant necks and nice movement. Kind of made me sad, but that is why we need domestic breeders to keep things moving forward and going back toward the Spanish type.

I have to see if I can find the info again but at the slaughter houses, 80% of what was there were stock type breeds - not the leaner, more versatile horses. The number one color was pinto. So, stock type horses, of color, are the number one horses at the slaughter houses. Something to consider when building a breed.

[ctxkiger]

I quoted it for various reasons most of which I am sure people can figure out. I do think that Kigers should be bred otherwise I would not be breeding them.... Also, not to sure Texas is full of BYB's. Texas may have had an abundance 15 years ago but not since the Slaughter houses closed. Contrary to public opinion people don't get rich off of breeding slaughter horses and they never have. A slaughter horse today, shipped out of the country, may sell for $100 in the states. Beef has always brought a considerably higher price at the auction barn(for meet).

[michelle77]

Sorry, if I had realized you were a breeder I would not have asked such a question....it will take me a little while to fugue out who does what on this board. I only asked because I know a lot of people think of people who breed mustangs as back yard breeders and that mustangs should not be breed. However I think the overall opinion on mustangs and their abilities are changing for the better.

[fantasykiger]

I honestly believe the Kiger Mustang can be that high end performance horse, doing dressage, eventing or equitation. Even western events such as reining and cow working are within their grasp. With the right amount of training and money they could go far.
What really makes me smile though is when you see how they take care of their kid riders. That want a pretty pony to ride and play on. The average Kiger Mustang owner surprised once again on how enjoyable Kiger ownership is. How pleasant it is to have a horse with such want to be a part of it's owners life. Even the Kiger ranch horse, these mustangs do appreciate a job. I would love to see more working horses, in local weekend shows. The more riding Kigers the better ..sbutter said it and I agree. There are lots of jobs for Kiger Mustangs.

[ctxkiger]

Very well said FantasyKiger. I think they are by far the most versatile horse I have ever been around. I was not trying to bust anyone's chops or by any means point any fingers (I want to make sure that is clear). My personal goal is to get my babies sold to people who will get out, use them, and brag about them to others. My Stallion puts a lot of cow sense into his babies. Word of mouth goes along ways and I have seen the change in perception recently.

[stacy]

Great discussion. I am on the fence on back yard breeders. I have a VERY nice horse BECAUSE he was bred by a backyard breeder. (Non Kiger). She taught him respect, gave him confidence and started him under saddle. When I bought him, he had the best possible start in life being owned by her. I had another that I purchased from a lady that watched enough dvd's on Parrelli to really screw with this horse's head. She made him dangerous. She bought the horse as a 3 mos old from a big breeding operation. The horse didn't have a chance. No initial exposure on learning how to be a respectful horse...straight to an owner that had no clue. I think most horse issues are caused by people. The thing I have noticed about the Kiger's is that they are unique enough that the people interested in them are generally "horse" people. Horse people like the disposition of the Kiger and then they make it even better by working with the horse. Having grown up with show Appaloosas and as an adult being very involved with endurance Arabians, I am SO impressed that the Kiger breeders actually consider DISPOSITION. What a novel idea! How to breed for it and how to maintain good disposition once the baby hits the ground. I think this helps promote the Kiger more than anything. I know nothing about the elite dressage or jumping or eventing horses out there, but I will sure talk up a horse with a nice disposition. Like Sarah said, most Kigers are owned by your average horse person. Someone that just wants a safe mount.

[michelle77]

When I think of a back yard breeder to me it is any breeder who breeds for a profit with no care for the outcome of what they have brought into this world. By the definition ctxkiger quoted that he found I think that would make most people back yard breeders in one way or another..be it you don't register your horses ect. As we know in the elite world of dressage and jumping some of these breeders are breeding horses purely for their physical abilities with no consideration to train-ability or the mental state of the horse they do it for the profit (and they are considered reputable breeders). I would say most people who do it just for profit also take no consideration in who they sell their horses to if you have the money you get the horse. I have learned a lot from Michelle and how she runs her breeding program, she will not sell her horses to anyone, she wants to make sure you are a good match first and she will always take her horses back and she has had to take back multiple horses back because of changes in peoples circumstances ect. If all breeders would do this there would be no more horses at the slaughter house and then the Europeans would just have to find something else to eat.

[DianneC]

There are Kigers competing in dressage, doing eventing, working cows, doing endurance, competitve trail and being awesome family horsess. It takes about ten years for things to change...ten years ago most people had never heard of Kigers. Now most horse people will say "Oh, a KIGER! Cool" So I figure we get to in on the ground floor. What we do matters, we are the stewards of the breed, every one of us. Fortunately, we have the most wonderful horses in the world so we love what we are doing. The economy hasn't been good, but the squabbling has stopped. It might be the best time in the world for us to be here doing what we are doing, don't you think? All that is needed is to do our very best and work together. The next ten years are going to be fun!