Reina work sessions...videod

[nightangel]

It's nice to see the corrections being made and the process that is involved. From the ground it is easier to pick out proper self carriage compared to the horse being lazy or out of shape. Viewing from a different perspective (not in the saddle!) helps us understand the real meaning of roundness. I think these video sessions are a great way to learn what we can do better in our own riding/training and a big help realizing what our horses need to work on, for any stage of training the horse may be in.

Reina is looking better already by day two, I am anxious to see the next couple videos! (hint hint! post them!)

At this point in Reina's training, would going back to lateral work help bring her head down at all? I know it will help her get those muscles strong again, but why not go back to this to get her in shape?

Also, can you explain a little for us the pros/cons of teaching her this in just a cavesson vs a snaffle bit?

One more thing! In the last photos you posted, why did you go back to the round pen instead of the outside arena?

[Michelle Clarke]

I will post the other videos...today my computer was hijacked and I've been spending all day working on getting it off - still running a scan that is only halfway finished and been at it for three hours so far. Miss my Mac.

Ideally I would go back to lateral but there are two reasons it will not benefit her right now. Reina has been one of the stiffest horses I've worked with (mostly having to do with the sire line; all those fillies have been stiff from front to back). Because of her stiffness, she tends to break at the base of the neck when you ask for laterals. So she "bends" but keeps the rest of the body straight therefore, no real lateral so no benefit and no wanting to put the head down.

Secondly, Eric started her under saddle years ago and he does a lot of the one rein flexing that is so popular with Natural Horsemanship trainers. He was more concerned with her learning to give the neck, that she quickly figured out how to rubber neck (break at the base) to avoid a real give (IMO). She also learned how to give that quick give, like a nod - but it was purely physical and not mental. So, mental brace = physical brace = stiffness somewhere in the body. You can see it still when Cali picks up the rein sometimes; Reina does a quick give without changing her body and expects Cali to release the rein, then sometimes get frustrated when there is no release. It has been hard to get her reconnected with the reins to her feet after all that flexing. I understand why Eric did it, as Reina was pretty reactive when first under saddle and it does calm them down (I can explain the reason why if you like in another post...); however, when flexing is used for this then there is a readjustment period that can take a long time with some horses...like Ms. Reina!

Personally, I hate when I take ahold of the rein and they do that token "give" - bugs the heck out of me! When I pick up the rein, I like the horse to shape up and think - something is about to happen and I am ready and willing! I will post the video of ChaCha doing groundwork and you can see the same stiffness and natural tendency to break at the base of the neck.

I want to stay in the cavesson because of all the picking up on the reins right now. I need her to concentrate on the body changing and not focusing on the bit plus I don't think it is fair to be doing so much with her mouth at this point. Another point is I have done Classical flexions with her in the bit for relaxation in the jaw and I want to save those for later - on another level. I want to show how to do the flexions high in the neck (especially while moving) and be able to show truer results. Reina actually does wonderfully with these flexions...Cali is just learning these too, so it will be fun to bring them along together.

The outside arena was soaked with all the rain we had, then dried with huge divets, which was making it hard for Reina to keep a steady tempo. It was okay for loose rein but for two rein, she needed more consistent ground. I am also just learning how to work my new video camera, so I wanted to see what would come of the arena work and I could show closer stuff. Those pics were taken while I was filming with the video recorder. In the outside arena, the sun was blinding me when I turned south and I could not even see the horse in the view finder most times. She actually does better outside than in the roundpen...!!

[Michelle Clarke]

This shows good early roundness with Amada. She is on the forehand, which is normal to begin with in order to let the hindlegs swing under the body more and the back losen. As she develops, the weight will balance out better and more weight will be on the hind eventually.

[Michelle Clarke]

Reina day three back to work; day two with 2 reins. I had to split the video due to length. This first part is at the walk, second part at trot.

[zhiaral]

If I might ask - is there another link to those video clips? All I'm getting is advertisements to optimize Firefox for AOL - which I don't use.

[Michelle Clarke]

Here is the direct link to our Channel...it has all the videos listed.

www.youtube.com/user/Cabachaloca?feature=mhee

[citykid]

Before you even get to this part of training with your horses, which is still on the basic side,
what does the horse need to accomplish on the ground? at liberty? I remember in yours/Eric's part #1 there was a list of about 30 things the horse needed to be able to do.
Do those all need to be completed first? Or , do you guys kind of mix and match. For example; you might flank rope and take a foot away before you get on the horse but dropping head all the way to the ground with your hand pressure might not have to be totally accomplished before you started backing the horse.......

[DianneC]

Is stiffness part of the issue with becoming round? I watched a video of one of my favorite Lusitano's playing at liberty. He has plenty of drive from the hocks, which I think many Kigers lack so they are very flat with their back feet. I've noticed in mine that there is a "labor saving" where the back foot tends to be swung from the hip and so its action is flat instead of being picked up higher by the hock. But I also noticed for the first time that the Lusitano didn't bend through the body at all, even at play.

[sbutter]

I thought it would be an interesting contrast to put up a video I made of a Lusitano mare working on some roundness too.

Without using a bit, how do you get them to seek contact with the "bit" for the roundness? Is it just off of the feel on the noseband piece?

Also, how do you keep a horse's shoulder from collapsing when you lunge in a circle? Is that kind of what the assistant is working on with the luso mare (when walking at her side) and getting her to cross the hind legs under too?

[Michelle Clarke]

I am assuming because you posted this for observations besides your questions so I will say if this is who I think it is, then being Traditional French Classical, he should realize this horse needs another 60-90 days of slow, relaxation work, flexions, lots of laterals and spirals to calm her before roundness - as it will become a false roundness.

To add to it all, she is in a side rein attached to the bit will firstly teach her to back off it and shorten her neck, then to lean on it - which is some folks idea of being "on the bit". I don't think this is this persons' idea about it, I could only hope. I don't think it helps popping her with the whip either, especially when she is already moving. What I see is the handler doing way to many things before the horse gets it or relaxes to it before moving on to yet another thing. I really saw nothing accomplished but what do I know.

So...on the bit. The reason it works for me without a bit is because I don't believe in being "on the bit". I train my horses to be "in the hand". Just thinking of that concept helps you redirect your methods. Hold your hands out and think of "on the bit". Then do the same thing and think of "in the hand". You should notice how in the first visualization, your hands are closed, maybe even tight. The second, there is a relaxation and an opening of the hand...at least there should be!

With that said, I don't teach my horses to go to the bit or the hand. I feel it is very self serving to think I know where my horses head or neck should be. Since they are used for balance, they will put them where needed for each stride or movement. How it becomes "correct" is when the weight begins to shift back, the horse rounds and the front becomes light. I use the head/neck as a barometer of where the horse is at - not the other way around. The reins in my hands are simply a connection from the horse to me in the first part of training. I go where they need to be. Later, I begin to set a flexible boundary that I know they can stay within. Ideally, we give and take together in upper level work.

Remember, the roundness comes from the hind legs to begin with - not the hands.

More later...

[citykid]

I have often wondered when training people to do the "splits" we should tie each leg and pull them into the proper position .... just duct tape their mouth closed and hit with a whip when they protest !!!

[Michelle Clarke]

I agree - I think auxiliary contraptions are used when knowledge is limited...or time. People don't often take the time to do things correct. When you tell someone it takes one year to build a topline then two more years for collection, well, how many will stick with it? How many want to stick with it? I know the videos I put up are boring and the proccess is slow but that is the reality of it all.

The first step to teaching roundness is building lateral roundess. This is accomplished by letting the horse get onto the forehand (to some extent - the base of the neck still needs to be up), pushing the hind legs not only under the body further but also toward the medial line (slightly sideways). This contracts the abdominals which lifts the back and allows the hind legs to go further under the horse.

This in turn brings the neck not only down but also flexed in, head down with a slight bend inwards. When this happens, the horse has to stand up on that shoulder. If the horse breaks at the base of the neck or does not bend behind the ribcage, the shoulder can and will drop or come in. Very stiff or very excited horses have this issue. At this point, the hind legs are only coming forward (in beginning work) and not taking a full stride but short stepping. OR swinging the hip over to throw the leg under.

So, in the first part of this video, the horse is on a large circle with only the legs coming mostly forward - not really under. This is why her head keeps bobbing. She reminds me much of Reina (my guess is similarly bred too from the looks and disposition of her!). Watch as she comes toward the camera as her inside hind leg mostly follows the inside front leg being on the same circle.

You can also see she is leaning on the rein - not really giving to it. Watch how her head tilts in and she the bend comes from right behind her ears with her only her nose turning and the base of her neck breaks inward - not a smooth curve from her shoulder to her nose. Her head should turn in with her ears staying on the same plane. Turn your head from your neck while your head stays straight...then tip your head by turning your chin to the side. Your head now feels heavy and your spine is pulled on. Whereas when you turn your whole head, it stays balanced and your neck/spine does not tense up.

My guess is this is a young horse just starting this work, so I am not putting down what is being done - just observing what I would be looking for or my personal goals would be here.

I would think that during the closer contact when the handler is walking closer, she may be working with the shoulder but I'm not sure. The position shows her using the whip on the inside hind leg to step under, the hand is bringing the head down and in but her body is mostly facing forward, which denotes coming forward, not focusing on the shoulder. Again, in my world, the shoulder is fixed by correct work in the hind...the quickest way to fix a dropped shoulder is lateral outwards.