Very Kigerish or Spanish looking Quarter Horses

[barbhorses]

Thanks for posting that Michelle. Hadn't read that in a long time. Good refresher. d'Andrade also based his findings on the Sorraia on very subjective information. Basically it boils down to what you think cave drawings resemble (to me they look like Mongolian wild horses) and if you think it is important that the PSL is born with "stripes" that fade away. Obviously not scientific data to base any concrete ideas on. I agree with you Michelle that the Sorraia people just have ideals in their heads and are wanting to claim to have something ancient even though they don't.

I have also seen some Sorraia's with table top croups. Others look very pony, some look more Spanish, etc. They can even flag their tails like Arabians which any old Iberian horse should not be able to do! www.aicsorraia.fc.ul.pt/index2_modelo.htm

You can see off type in the first photo on that Portuguese studbook website. Mare has very poor Iberian type. It is wrong going from her head to her hip! If you go to Raca Sorraia and click on Origem. There is a list of the founding Sorraia horses. The only horse there that we have a history on is the Argentine Criollo stallion called Tata Dios Cardal. Other than that, we have no historical data on the rest of them. Being that Spain and Portugal have cross bred their stock for centuries, I find it rather a fantasy that some people actually think that these Sorraia horses managed to escape any influence.

If you go to Criadores, there is a list of breeders that have photos in the different countries. Just go through them and you can see the array of types that the Sorraia come in. Some horses are rather nice, but a lot of them I wouldn't want to see being bred.

[stormyranch]

Chief Joseph bred some of the finest Appaloosa's ever. He had over 5000 in his herd and was considered a very wealthy chief because of it. Other tribes bred fine horse also, they didn't steal all of them!


While there is evidence of leopard-spotted horses dating back to the Paleolithic era in Europe, the Nez Perce people of the United States Pacific Northwest developed the American breed.
The Nez Perce people, who lived in what today is eastern Washington and Oregon, obtained horses, including many from the Shoshone people, beginning around 1700. From there took advantage of the fact that they lived in excellent horse-breeding country, relatively safe from the raids of other tribes, and developed strict breeding selection practices for their animals. By 1750, breeding herds had been established. They were one of the few tribes to actively use the practice of gelding inferior male horses, and actively traded away poorer stock to remove unsuitable animals from the gene pool, and became known as notable horse breeders by the early 19th century.
These early Nez Perce horses were considered to be of high quality. Meriwether Lewis of the Lewis and Clark Expedition wrote in his February 15, 1806 journal entry: "Their horses appear to be of an excellent race; they are lofty, elegantly formed, active and durable: in short many of them look like fine English coarsers and would make a figure in any country." Lewis did note spotting patterns, saying, "...some of these horses are pided [pied] with large spots of white irregularly scattered and intermixed with the black brown bey or some other dark colour..."
By "pied," Lewis may have been referring to leopard-spotted patterns seen in the modern Appaloosa, though Lewis also noted that "much the larger portion are of a uniform colour..." The Appaloosa Horse Club itself estimates that only about ten percent of the horses owned by the Nez Perce at the time were spotted. While the Nez Perce originally had many solid-colored horses and only began to emphasize color in their breeding program some time after the visit of Lewis and Clark, they had many spotted horses by the late 19th century when the tribe and their horses once again came to the attention of the rest of the world!!!

AIHR (American Indian Horse Registry) recognizes five classifications of registration. The Class O (Original) for the purebred "Mustang" or "Indian Horse" is for horses that are not bred to conform to popular current standards, but to preserve original bloodlines of Native American Indian tribes. Class O horses registered since 1979 have bloodlines that trace back to various American Indian tribes and families. (Most horses registered with the SMR, SSMA, SBBA as well as other "Mustang" registries, qualify for O classification). Class AA (1/2 O) for the Half bred are at least half O in breeding or are of exceptional O type. BLM horses may qualify for AA classification. To be inspected and to qualify as AA on inspection, horses must be at least 4 years of age. Class A horses are horses with unknown bloodlines, but who are Indian Horse type.

The tribes that are noted for their horse culture and superior, well-bred horses are the Cayuse, Nez Perce, Chickasaw and Choctaw Nations, the Pawnee, and Shoshone. These tribes probably learned selective breeding, line breeding and inbreeding from the Spaniards. The inbreeding skills used by the Chickasaw and Choctaws to develop their strain of horse still remains a mystery.

It is my oppion that Indians had a great influence on our present day mustangs, be it Kiger, South Steins or Sulpher!
Lisa

[barbhorses]

Oh for crying out loud! I didn't say that modern day Indians are thieves or insinuate that! The Indians back in the day did steal horses. That is a fact. They were mostly traders and thieves. They raided missions. How else would they acquire horses? The Spanish certainly wouldn't sell them horses and neither would anyone else! The crown forbid any "natives" (I use the term loosely as the Indian's ancestor's just simply got here before the Europeans did, but the Europeans of course didn't know that at the time) from even riding horses let alone buying one! I think that you are being overly sensitive to the fact that Indians stole horses.

The only influence the Indians (Ute to be specific) had on the Spanish type Sulphur was that they stole thousands of Spanish horses from the CA missions and some had escaped from the Old Spanish Trail about 40 miles from where they were found in the Needles Mountain Range. As far as breeding practices, they had nothing to do with that. That was all Spanish. The expert horseman and breeders of the day and for millennia (and to me, they still are today).

The history of the northwest has little Spanish influence. They were only there (and on the Oregon coast mind you) for 10 years. Most of the influence was from America (as in peoples from around France and up into Northern Europe) and Britain. The Indians are also a recent peoples that acquired horses from the Spanish and English and adopted many of the practices of the horse cultures of Europe and then brought in some of their own ideas.

Most of the Indians let their herds run wild and breed with whatever. Let nature take its course. That is why the Nez Perce were so special as they were the very first tribe that actually attempted to be breeders of horses.

Yes, it was a nice compliment from Lewis and Clark. They were also not Spanish horses from the comments and descriptions of the horses that the Nez Perce bred. They sounded more Thoroughbredy which would make sense with the history of the area. The appy color is documented back in ancient Chinese portraits which is why many believe that color pattern to have originated in Asia. There was a Chinese ship listed as having come to Oregon and well as Russian. It is also said that the Nez Perce horses were traded and sold to many other Indian tribes. Might make sense why the other tribes started trying to breed horses as well after the Nez Perce tribe were making money on them and also after buying the Nez Perce horses and seeing how much better they were than the horses that they owned.

[Michelle Clarke]

barbhorses...I will continue to delete posts that are name calling. As you said, you wanted to take it to PM so please do so if you want to continue. I don't belive the above post initiated the issue, so I left it.

I am not taking sides. Just not letting a nice thread go bad.

[barbhorses]

Thank you Michelle for removing the offensive post.

[sbutter]

I think this is one of those things where we reached the down side of written communication. Since we don't really know each other personally and can't go off of body language, it can leave the rest up to the reader's assumptions. I don't think this falls into the "kiger drama," but more of the area of misunderstanding that can occur with written communication. Obviously both sides are not happy and both sides feel justified in their defense, so it just becomes a matter of who is willing to say they are sorry for the misunderstanding, take a deep breath, and realize that there are more important things in life to get worked up about than this error.

If either of you is willing to do so, it would be nice if they could go back and edit out anything that does not come across as a question, but is more of an accusation. I scanned through it and I see some sentences that could be taken out. Once that is done, then it will look like a heated debate but not mudslinging. If either of you do wish to move on, please try to do it in a humble type manner, otherwise it just comes across as something negative that will fuel more argument, whether that is your intention or not.

I am also not taking sides, but I am trying to think of the fellow readers, both now and in the future, who will come across this potentially informative thread.

[rubymountainkigers]

The American Livestock Breeds Conservancy lists the Choctaw Horse as one of the rare Spanish Type breeds in need of preservation. Dr. Phil Spodenberg is their consultant on horse breeds so the list is based on his criteria for what constitutes a Spanish Type breed. Still , whether you agree with Dr. Spodenberg or not,I think we can all agree that there have been several breeders of Spanish type or Spanished influenced horses over the past several centuries, each breeding for what they determined was desirable in the horses they produced. The Shoshone tribe was also present in parts of Eastern OR, Nevada and Idaho and are quite likely a possible source of Spanish Type horses being brought into this area. The ION area, Idaho, Oregon and Nevada is well known for having a heavy vaquero influence historically from the Californios as cattlemen moved there from Calif after Calif. enacted the fenced range laws in 1849. They were known to bring horses and cattle with them from Calif to populate the ranges in the Great Basin. Pete French who is one of the early settlers of Harney County OR brought vaqueros and horses from Calif with him when he established his holdings in Eastern OR. During his hey day they started 1000 head of horses each winter in the Pete French Round Barn. I'm pretty sure at least some of those horses were original Calif. Mission type horses. Also Miller and Lux had a huge influence on this area. They also originated in Calif. and became one of the biggest horse and livestock operators in the Great Basin. They brought horses and cattle with them into the region as well.

[pepper]

I just finished reading a book given me by a friend called"America's Last Wild Horses" by Hope Ryden,published in 1970 ,it pre-dates Kigers but is very interesting with lots of references to Native Americans and their relationship to horses.It's so sad that one method the Government used to defeat them was to remove their horses ,destroying their herds & leaving them only their poorest quality animals,if any.Would have been amazing to see the quality of horse they would have ended up with since even back then they were said to have bred very distinct & prized horses.

[barbhorses]

Perhaps that ranch is where the Kiger got its Spanish influence? I also heard from a man that is about 80 years old now that told me that his friend took 4 Sulphurs up to Oregon and turned them loose. Some fresh CA blood into the Kiger maybe? Never said where they turned those horses loose at, but any time I see some similarities with the Kiger and Sulphur I always think of what that old man said about his friend.

[barbhorses]

Sarah, thank you for being the mediator for this upset. I reworded some of the sentences that you pointed out to me. Thank you.

[Jackie]

This has been a very instructive thread. I'm still realizing how very historical these Spanish horses are, and how amazing and fortunate we are for these isolated populations.