Very Kigerish or Spanish looking Quarter Horses

[barbhorses]

Perhaps it was a throwback? Off types come in all horse breeds. There is a Spanish type Sulphur stallion that I know of that has this almost Tarpan head on him... NO IDEA where that came from as neither of his parents have a head that looks remotely like his! The rest of him is typical save the head... He also never grew to either of his parents height. He is 13.2HH and his parents are 14.1HH. He was well taken cared of and never starved, so nutrition has nothing to do with it.

Perhaps Ora is just a throwback to some Arab genes in the Kiger?

[Michelle Clarke]

I don't belive the dished head comes from only the arabians. After seeing it pop up in some other breeds, like those foundation QH's that surely don't have arab in them, I think it is just something that comes up as a species for whatever reason.

However, if the Kigers have Lusitano in them and some Lusitanos have arabian influence (especially back in the day), then it surely can be a throwback.

[Jackie]

Wow, I find all of this to be fascinating and educational.

[stormyranch]

Diane, great examples of the three types! I have called Dino more the Barb type horse. With the heart shaped head and stalky body.




An Lui as the more Sorraia type.

[Jackie]

Wow, they're gorgeous!

[stormyranch]

Now our mini, "Jake" really has a dished face. Is this from the Arab?
I will have to e-mail Dr. Lisa C. Beagan, DVM, and ask her about this, as she has researched this for quite some time. www.vetcentric.com/

[barbhorses]

I would find it hard to believe that any QH doesn't have Arabian in them. There is merit in the saying that most horse breeds have Arabian influence!

We also all appear to have different concepts on type. To me, Dino looks nothing like a Barb and Lui looks nothing like a Sorraia.

Here are pictures of a Portuguese Sorraia stallion (now a gelding) that was bred by the d'Andrade family:



Here are pictures of African Barbs:
esthergarvi.com/2009/03/28/our-aussie-saddle-has-arrived/


While I was searching for African Barb pictures I came across an AQHA breeders page and had this gelding for sale. Could pass off for a not very well bred Kiger imo
www.doublebarbranch.com/pages/horses-for-sale.php


Being that it appears that no one knows the area of where the Kigers were found very well at all (that would be Beatty's Buette for Jackie ). The best guess I have for the Kigers origins (using their genetic findings as well) is that they might possibly have direct influence from Spanish horses, but they are also most likely a blend of different breeds of Spanish influence. Which would make sense for them having the same Spanish markers as the QH, Morgan, etc. So, Arab being in the Kiger (or TB or QH, might explain the big height that quite a few seem to be getting nowadays) wouldn't be surprising to me.

Either way on their history, genetics, and conformation, I do think that well bred Kigers are something to keep breeding for. Breeding intelligent, beautiful, and hardy horses is never something to be condemned (whether they are Spanish or just Spanish influenced or not Spanish at all). So, I don't want you all to think I am bashing Kigers (because I am not at all) just because I don't think that they are an Iberian breed (based on their history, genetics, and conformation). I do think that they are lovely animals and when bred well, make some absolutely stunning horses to look at and no doubt ride (That is the point after all! To have an amazing riding partner!). I just hope to see some Bolero foals out there soon! Would be a real shame for him to not be used or barely used!

[stormyranch]

Kimberlee, Who exactly are you comparing african barb horses to? If you are not comparing, why are you posting it.
Also, any ill bred horse that is a buckskin can be paased off as a not very well bred Kiger!

[barbhorses]

You said that Dino looked like a Barb and that Lui looked like a Sorraia. The pictures I posted were as to why I disagree with your comments.

[stormyranch]

And this is more the type I was comparing Lui too. A Sorraia

[barbhorses]

... those are Painter Barb horses and for all better terms, Spanish Mustangs (save the Spanish type Sulphur influence that Bob used occasionally). "Horse of the red Indian, mixed blood of Spanish origin" as John Fusco (he owns CS horses) put it in Hidalgo. So, whatever type of horse that the Indians stole or traded a hundred plus years ago, this is the result. By the way, my Spanish type Sulphur mare is registered with Bob Painter's registry. She is IBHR 325 (same Barb registry that that buckskin is registered in). That doesn't make her any closer to being an African Barb (the authentic Barb) than that piece of paper that is sitting in her file. I have the tally book listing the horses that you pictured if you want to look at it. Save I think that the black came from Terry Moore's breeding program. He has mainly used Romero/Mckinley stock with Peruvian Paso influence.

The reason why they are called Barb horses in the first place is because they come from the Barbary North African coast. You can't have an authentic Barb unless it is from Barbary breeding.

[grullagirl]

Actually I think there is a possibility of an arab influence in QHs. The founder of the QH breed was a TB named Janus whos grandfather was the Goldolphin Arabian. But this guy was foaled almost 200 years ago so his influence would have faded. I believe that there might be some arabs who slipped in as QHs when the AQHA was just formed. Many ranches who bred working cow horses also had arabs. I think with the doubling up of the cow horse bloodlines is the cause of the extreme refinement you see today. I think the two main stallions responisble for the finer heads today are Reminic and Hollywood Dun It. By the way its so cool to see all the different comformation types of the spanish horses.

[Michelle Clarke]

We may be narrowing down that the dished face is an arabian throwback...!

[Michelle Clarke]

As far as the Sorraia goes, there is quite a debate amoung historians and breeders in Spain and Portugal. The Sorraia as was known as a wild horse has been extinct for some time. The story goes that d'Andrade used to hunt with his family as a child on the Iberian Penninsula and he remembered the wild horses there. After going back as an adult, the horses were gone. He then went around to all the ranches in that area who still has remnants of these horses used for ranch work and picked out ones he thought closely resembled the ones he remembered from childhood.

Most likely, these horses were bred with other ranch horses over the years and it is safe to say that are not the "pure" strain they had been orginally. I understand why people are trying to preserve what they can, in the image they belive, but in the end, it is still a man made breed in these modern times. Ideals from images in ones head.

Interestingly, he states that half of the original horses were visably dun.

D'Andrade also states that this small, heavy, pony-like horse is not the same as the horse that had the influence on the modern Iberian horses. There were other indigenous horses that were taller and more refined (described also as faster) that originated from the south of the Penninsula. These horses are belived to have been there as early as the Neolithic period and did not disappear from Iberia during the Mesolithic. They are belived to be influenced by contact with other horses from the northern part of Spain and ancient Celtic and African (Capsian) horses. This is belived to have developed the type that is very distiguishable and still holds in the modern Andalusian and Lusitano.

My belief is that the Kiger has more of this influence than that of the Sorraia. While, in my opinion, there certainly can be that blood in there as well - the discriptions seem to fit the Kiger more often than not. The Kiger also has a very distinguishable type and is often mistaken for the Andalusian or Lusitano (especially if they are not striped as this does not throw people off). My grey Kiger, Rev, is always mistaken for a Lusitano by Lusitano people and sometimes an Andalusian by non-spanish horse people.

So, at the end of the day, even the Sorraia of modern days has other influence...just as the wild mustang herds. A blend of the past and present - which always makes interesting when that foal hits the ground!

[grullagirl]

Heres a photo of the stallion Reminic

pets.webshots.com/photo/1003383746011518646tPDzkWJXZC?vhost=pets