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Post by barbhorses on May 5, 2010 12:43:44 GMT -5
I would like to add some things (or more detail) to this.
The Iberian Factor:
-a slightly convex profile of the head (would be the ideal, but the profile can also be straight)
-large, generous eyes (need to be almond shaped as well as having a bone arch above the eye which is classic Spanish)
-a long powerful neck, deep at the base and set at a rather wide angle to the shoulder
-high withers (but not sharp like a TB)
-a short-coupled body with powerful loins, the back almost appearing rounded (rounded due to the lumbar)
-hind legs positioned well under the body axis, producing excellent hock action and thrusting forward impulsion
-small, round, high hooves (in proportion to the horse)
-a tempermament of exceptional courage, willingness, and kindness (this description is exactly what Pueblo's temperament is like).
Michelle, we know what old Iberian horses looked like as there are paintings of them. Though, viewers must try to not use baroque period paintings as those are not of old Iberian horses. The baroque period horses have a much longer head that is a lot more convex than paintings of Spanish horses that were done before the baroque period and before Charles V started to cross the old Iberian horse with the warmblood from the low lands. They were also much smaller than the baroque horses as Deb Bennett pointed out in her book titled the Conquerors.
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Post by sbutter on May 5, 2010 13:48:31 GMT -5
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Post by kigermustang1 on May 5, 2010 19:21:46 GMT -5
Great links, thanks for posting them.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on May 6, 2010 7:11:54 GMT -5
Okay...I don't want this to turn into another "spanish" "old iberian" thread. But with all due respect here, if the discription that is being used is taken from paintings -well, then I say there is alot left open for interpretation here. Literally. An artist interpretes what they see and puts in down on the canvas, whether they are exactly accurate or not. I also belive that these paintings are very focused on either the rider (probably someone important) or depicting a part of history - weaving a story. I am sure the artist did not have a great knowledge of bone structure and angles (especially correct biomechanics), nor did they put importance on such things. For one fact, many of the paintings are shown with the horse in movement. So, since the horse cannot freeze in that moment in time long enough for the artist to paint it, they are going from memory. Many artists today paint from a picture or at least are using many as reference.
While they give an overall impression of the horse, I would not lay claim to any exactness. I honestly have a hard time with someone stating that any breed of horse, as it stands today, replicates horses of back in the day.
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Post by barbhorses on May 6, 2010 11:43:59 GMT -5
Well paintings, descriptions that were written down of the horses, and also viewing the horses in the Americas that are known for very little crossbreeding. What are the common points of all old Iberian horse conformation? Obviously height. Old Iberian horses cannot grow tall without some help. Breeders are very proud when a horse can reach 15.2HH without outside influence. So, we can deduce that in looking at other Spanish breeds, if they easily reach 15.2HH and greater that they clearly have outside influence.
I don't believe we have 100% pure old Iberian horses left, but I do believe that we have some breeds that are pretty close.
So, in regards to the back, we know that Spanish horses should have a rounded lumbar with a relatively short back as that is the common feature among many Spanish horse breeds. It is also noticed that other breeds of horses that are not Spanish generally do not have this feature.
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Post by DianneC on May 6, 2010 13:07:15 GMT -5
Huh? why 15.2? Any horse breed that is bred selectively for height will have height if they have adequate nutrition. Often in one generation if nutrition is the reason for lack of height. Old Iberian horses were bred back when for several hundred years. Why couldn't they be over 15.2? The reason we don't see them in the wild is poor nutrition both over winter and summer.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on May 6, 2010 13:23:45 GMT -5
Not to be catty here, but I don't hold much stock in those reasons to be put down as facts as what they looked like. And as far as height, humans in days past were generally much shorter than they are now. Health and nutrition have much to do with this and that can be said of the same with the animals. There are always two sides to the coin and I belive they should be both looked at before an assumption is made. Even writing can be interpretations or what the author or person dictating wanted to be depicted. Just last night there was a show on about how they found George Washingtons death masks and after putting all the facial features together, he actually looks nothing like what is shown today. He did not have a strong jaw line and at that time, people in power "needed" to have that, so that is how he told the artist to draw him. Heck, get a few school history books together and see all the conflicting dates and facts! Napoleon Bonaparte was said to be 5' tall (some say a little taller...). So if that is the case, then this horse must be like 13' tall:  Obviously he did not ride a small horse to further accentuate his lack of height...so this is a rendering, an interpretation; not the truth. I think we would all be interested if barbhorses could post some pictures of horses you consider to have rounded vertabrae standing, not moving as they can flex and appear "rounded" when in motion. |
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Post by barbhorses on May 6, 2010 13:24:50 GMT -5
Not true. In order to get height in the Columbian Paso Fino they had to import an Andalusian to get the height as they could not breed for it. 15.2 is the highest they have gotten in the Peruvian Paso and Paso Fino without adding other blood. Dr. Deb Bennett also pointed that out that the old and more purer Iberian breeds will naturally not be able to grow to really tall.
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Post by barbhorses on May 6, 2010 13:28:14 GMT -5
Napolean's fav. horse was an Arabian. He is famous for riding Arabs, not Spanish horses.
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Post by barbhorses on May 6, 2010 13:29:58 GMT -5
Let me find the pic of the Sulphur mare that was emaciated to show the lumbar.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on May 6, 2010 13:37:59 GMT -5
That's true of the Pasos (and it is Lusitano they used every nine generations BTW). However, gaited breed are generally smaller because they gait better, so smaller ones are actually preferred...However, we can't know how tall old iberians are because there are none left. It is all speculation and interpretation of history.
By looking at horses in America that are known for little crossbreeding...you mean since they were brought over on the boats? Come on, Kim. Any reasonable person would intellectually know this cannot be remotely true! And even if you say there is "little" crossbreeding, there is still that factor present and that changes things. Even first generation crossbreds can 1) be dramatically different from both parents or 2) represent one parent over another much more. With that said, there is are many many many variations in each breeding and the outcome of such. Its' just bunk to say anything of the sort. The more I hear, the more I understand how people can grab onto one thing (or person) they want to belive and go full tilt with it and hold it as gospel.
Do some research on Wolf hybrids and all the studies done on how even in the same litter (w/50% wolf and 50% domestic dog), how some pups look and act just like a wolf, how some look and act just like a dog and how some are varying mixes of the two. Even though you have 50/50 genetics, they all come togther dominant or recessive in each get. Meaning, one can be mostly dominant one way or the other, depending on what genes they got at the moment of conception.
Okay...back to conformation of a good Saddle Horse...
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Post by Michelle Clarke on May 6, 2010 13:42:15 GMT -5
I don't care what he rode, it wasn't 12 hands and I guess the spots on the artists' interpretation are not arabian, much less Spanish (which I did not say). In fact, this picture is painted with the horse being a variety of colors in different pictures...
I don't want to see a picture of an emaciated Sulpher mare who probably has other nutritional issues and may be standing holding her abdomin up in pain and rounding her back. Please put up some normal photos we can all gleen from.
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Post by barbhorses on May 6, 2010 13:54:19 GMT -5
Ok... Here is the same mare, but in better condition. You can still see her lumbar rounding up.  |
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Post by barbhorses on May 6, 2010 14:05:39 GMT -5
I said that is known for little crossbreeding. I would never look at a Marchador for old Iberian type or the Argentine Criollo as they are both crossed enough to not reasonably use them for that purpose. By looking at the horses that are known for little crossbreeding and then comparing those breeds you can then gleam the similar features that they all share and deduce that would be old Iberian traits.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on May 6, 2010 14:21:08 GMT -5
The rounded lumbar, as you are showing it, is a common feature with the Kigers, along with many Lusitanos and some Andalusians. The Columbian bred Paso Finos really have this, some to an extreme. If this mare were standing square, you would really notice a dip in her back behind her withers (banana back). If her hind legs were under her so her hocks were not out behind her, she may really show a dip in there and maybe even be close to downhill built.
Thanks for posting the picture. I still don't think that that is a feasable way to deduce what would be considered old Iberian type...again, someone vision/interpretation. To each his own!
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