Fit's new persona

[prizmbluekigers]

I'ts been a month since we gelded Fit and what a difference. He doesn't "challenge" me when I ask him to do anything and he is much more respctful. I am so looking forward to continuing with training and our ground never really froze this winter thanks to El Nino so it's time to build some new toys and get busy.

I put his mare back in with him and they were fine. We have about a 2 acre dry pasture and just goy new neighbors, two TWH geldings (big) and whenI let the fillies in with Fit and Ginger, Fit decided to go into protection mode. He would not allow the ladies to go near the geldings. Then he herded them into the far corner and made them stay there while he took up a position between them and the geldings.

He refused to let them out of the corner, even to eat or drink so I had to relocate them all. I just thought it interesting that he didn't mind Ginger being near the geldings, but when we added the fillies the whole thing changed. How strong their instincts are. He was raised in captivity and yet when the first male horse showed up, his instincts kicked in. Dianne was right in an earlier post about "guy" behavior.

[kigermustang1]

Herd dynamics have always interested me. It amazes me how the position of each horse in a herd can change with the slightest difference in their enviroment.

When I first started researching Kigers I came across a situation that really grabbed my attention. At the Wild Sage Ranch, they had a lead mare ("Honey" I think) who had my mares daughter, Kizzy as her second.

Kizzy made a decision to try and challenge Honey for the lead position and bought herself a week of pure hell. Honey banished her from the herd and refused to let her back in but that was not all that I noticed. The dynamics of the herd also changed.

Each horse in that herd had actually made an effort to reassure each other of their postion. I learned that in a herd, if one position changes, it can be like a ripple effect on all the other members. I am really looking forward to watching Kigers of my own one day. I have so much to learn from them and they sound like the perfect teachers!!!!!

Karen

[dazzlingduns]

Karen,
Thanks for sharing that story again.
I remember Kelly shared this same story, but I think it was on another board a long time ago.
It is very common for a adolescent horse to try to pull rank on another in a herd environment. I see this on a daily basis.
dejavu.
Melissa

[kigermustang1]

Hello Melissa:

Yes, I first saw this about 3+/- years ago when I initially started looking into Kigers. I had a chance to visit the Wild Sage Ranch where Honey and Kizzy were living. Infact, its Kelly who owns Kizzy and Shasta. She is the one I am leasing Shasta from. I dont remember Shasta being there back then, but she could have been in one of the other pastures out back.

Is this just an adoloescent thing or do some mares continue to do this all their lives? Shasta (16yrs) is actually a real sweetie and sits about middle bottom of the pecking order right now. She does not strike me as the type of mare to want to climb the ranks. She is more of a "whatever" type of mare that is not looking to "rock the boat" so to speak. How might this change (if at all) once she has had her foal? Herd dynamics have always interested me and it is something I would really like to learn more about.
Karen

[dazzlingduns]

Tell Kelly I said hi, and notice she hasn't posted on this board in quite a while. Is everything alright with her?
You could possibly be misreading the situation with your leased mare. Perhaps someone with more experience studying herd dynamics will offer their opinion. Most of my herd dynamics consists of bully boy battles.
Melissa

[kigermustang1]

I relayed your message to Kelly and she said to tell you that she has been really busy working on a new project with her Kigers. She also asked me to say hi to everyone and hopes they had a great holiday.

[DianneC]

Usually a mare with a foal will go up in rank, because she no longer has a "whatever" attitude but tells other mares to stay away from her foal. Is this her first foal? You need to give her some room to herself when she foals if so. Lark stole Mojito from the first time mom, Sedona. I'd heard of that but never seen it. Good thing my friend and her daughter stopped by or we would have lost Mojito.
Often there will be an auntie mare who will help the new mom by helping to keep danger away, including other horses. They will sandwich the foal between them to protect it. I find that the oldest mare, if she is in great health, will be the lead mare. Cedar was lead for years, but LadyRose, who was the bottom took over as lead. Just because a mare takes over doesn't mean all the other mares will follow her. Especially if she is mean or doesn't do what is best for the herd. Cedar rarely bit or kicked and could control the herd with a look or an ear. I did have a mare once, Cricket, that would kick everyone out of the way and not let anyone eat while she was eating. One day I found that she was suddenly now bottom of the pecking order. Apparently someone got tired of not eating and put her in her place.
What was really interesting was when Cruiser was born and Smoke took a sudden dislike to him and was threatening him. Smoke had a grudge against Chinny and I don't know if Cruiser smelled like Chinny or what. Smoke was always good with foals before that. LadyRose is an experienced mom and would put herself between Smoke and Cruiser and was very good at kicking and running at the same time. We were frantic to get a hold of Smoke as Cruiser was new born. He sure kept up with his mom easily, hence his name.

Finally we got a halter on Smoke and put him across the road in the other pasture. There were four mares and the 3 month old Quiceda over there. Those mares had seen what was going on across the road and the mother took Quil to the back of the pasture while the other three mares came out in a wedge to challenge Smoke. Teanna was only a long two year old, but big. Tia was too old and the other mare was just a yearling filly. So Teanna was point and put herself between the mares and Smoke and would not let him by. He tried everything and finally Teanna put her should behind his and pushed him all over the pasture. She never bit or kicked him. Smoke finally quit and stood by the fence calling to "his" mares across the road, who stood way up on the hill and ignored him. Teanna and the other mares finally let him join them after a few days. You can see pictures of this in Teanna's album on webshots.
The auntie thing is fascinating. Often a young mare who doesn't have a foal will babysit for the older mares. I remember one time this happened and the young mare had her head high and was proudly looking all around for any sign of danger with two babies sleeping at her feet and the moms 50 yards away grazing happily.

[kigermustang1]

Dianne:

Thank you for the wonderful explanation. Shasta is 16yrs old and Kelly told me that she has had foals in the past when she lived in Oklahoma. As a rule I do put an expectant mare in a large foaling stall and seperate pasture about a week or two before the birth to allow her to settle in and feel comfortable with the space. As long as all is well with Shasta and the foal I will allow them to rejoin the herd after the foal is about 10 to 14 days old.

Kelly also had another mare (grulla) that was bred to the same stud. I was thinking about leasing her too but apparently she is the type of mare that will try to steal babies. I was told that once she has her own baby she is fine. I just dont have the room for two foaling paddocks so I chose Shasta. I think Sierra went to the States some place, dont remember exactly where.

Shasta is presently running with three other Kigers that were at the Wild Sage Ranch. They were bought by the lady that runs the boarding stable I have Shasta placed at. They all get along as they knew each other before. Shasta is third on the pecking order. The only Kiger that is under her is a (soon to be) 2 yr old colt out of a mare named Honey.

She actually gets along quit well with an older Q-Horse who is pastured beside her. They visit over the fence all the time and are stalled side by side at night. I am not sure who will take up the role of Auntie. I am thinking that it may be Saleen as her daughter Fuzzy is actually the lead mare. The pecking order goes like this.... Fuzzy - Lead, Saleen - 2nd, Shasta - 3rd and Chief - 4th.

Chief has a wonderful personality and is extremely immature for his age. He very docile and has not started showing any signs of being studish. I am not sure if it is because the Kigers mature more slowly or if it is because the mares keep him in check but it is going to be interesting to see what happens this spring and summer when the mares start really showing their heats.

[dunbnwild]

I love hearing all the herd dynamics stories. It's one of the greatest things about living with your horses and having them in a herd--who needs Soap Operas?

I thought my little group was pretty stable with Cat as boss, Lazzy as her bad cop, and little Rainy just having to take it. But Rain and Lazzy have been having some discussions lately. The hardest thing for Rain to overcome will be that Cat and Lazzy are very bonded. To the point that Cat, who is 100% alpha boss mare, will let Lazzy share a bucket with her. So even if Rain gets one over on Lazzy, I don't think Cat will support it for very long.

[DianneC]

Is Chief is whole or gelded?

[angelsdream]

Good thread to read. Lakota is the herd mare at my place but she's a good herd mare. She doesn't do anything unless she has to and then it's a bite first and if the horse doesn't respond, she'll turn her butt around and threaten. She's the perfect head mare like Dianne was saying about Cedar. Ive seen some head mares that were just plain ugly, intentionally run horse's and was constantly fighting with everyone. It was awful. Needless to say, the other horse's were always terrified and wide eyed. I would not own a mare like that.

Bella doesn't really have a place yet she's so happy go lucky and loves to meet and greet but knows her place when someone runs her off, she'll walk off and do her own thing. There is a donkey in the pasture with her now that she pushes a little bit with her ears being laid back, but that's about it, Ive not seen anything else from her. Lakota has tought her well I guess.

The one story I want to share is I have Lakota in a lot until she foals. When the weather is bad, I'll put Bella in there with her cause they have a shed and stalls to go in if they want, well there are 2 horse's in the pasture that joins the lot, 2 mares, and when I put Bella in there with Lakota, Lakota will not let Bella go up to those other 2 horses. She keeps her herded away from them. I thought that was pretty neat to see. Everytime Bella would try to go over and meet them, Lakota would get between them and run Bella off. Of course one of these mares is a very aggressive mare and is mean, so I guess Lakota knows that. She has even gotten between me and those 2 mares before.

[desperatehorsewife]

Herd dynamics are fascinating. Like Cedar, Sandy's a leader. Ears or the swish of a tail puts most horses in their place unless they're foolish enough to challenge him (actually...all the geldings have been foolish due to their age. :

When Steve Holt! was first turned out with Sandy, he thought he'd take over as leader. I got terrific photos of them rearing up and pushing shoulder to shoulder in the air. Incredible stuff. I walked away thinking there'd be a new leader, but when I came back, Sandy was lunging Steve Holt! in circles. SH! was sweating up a storm, Sandy was cool as a cucumber. When he saw me, SH! came running to the gate, but Sandy pinned his ears and shook his head, so off went Steve Holt! until Sandy said he could stop ;D

Tika was always snotty with Vita (mare) and Sky Bar (gelding) when they first arrived. But put her in with Sandy and she became super compliant. I hear of lead mares, and she certainly is one with everyone else, but Sandy is a ladies man. I should have named him Cary Grant!

One young gelding who challenged him, and continued to try to pick his way to the top, found himself facing down Sandy's double barrel kicks for two solid weeks. The poor colt didn't even make an attempt after a few days, but Sandy was bound and determined to teach him a lesson, since it obviously took him so long to learn it.

I'll be interested to see how things play out once the pinto Paisley mare gets here. Tika is very maternal with me, wrapping her neck around me to shield me when the wind blows (weirdest thing ever!), so I wonder how she'll react to someone else's foal? And how will Sandy behave? I know Steve Holt! will be his usual sullen, sulky self. It'll be fun to watch it all play out.

[dunbnwild]

All this talk of lead mares and I have to share a story about Cat. Now Cat is every inch a lead mare, she is the first one out to do the meet and greet and is quick to get her point across and after that's been made a few facial gestures seem to be all she needs to make. She's very gentle with youngsters. In fact, she tends to adopt them, which is what she did with Lazzy when they both came out from Arizona.

We had them seperated from the herd for the first few days and the other trash talked her over the fence. So much so, we were worried when we let them out into the herd that poor Cat was going to have a hard time defending herself and protecting Lazzy.

Ha!

As soon as the gate was opened, Cat's eyes lit up--she puffed up her chest and marched right at the herd, daring them. And boy did those other trash-talking horses duck their heads down, and get real busy grazing.

No one wanted to take her on. And I think it kind of disapoointed her.

The only time she's ever had real problems with other horses has been when they don't adhere to herd behavior. Like this one bottle-fed orphan who had no clue how intigrate himself and chose a very confrotational approach at that--she just could not rest until he was gone.

[DianneC]

I remember an older picture of Cat, when she was still in Arizona. She was standing there with the look of eagles in her eyes. Beautiful.

[DianneC]

So Bobbe, how is it going with Fit now that the fillies aren't there. Is everything back to normal? Have been up to see the herds recently?