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Post by karismakigers on Jan 18, 2009 0:17:04 GMT -5
Your correct Jillian no one can fault the KMA for letting in the found horses that the BLM brought to them. The problem started when they didn't tighten up the loop hole to only BLM Oregon HMA horses. That was the original intent with the unanimous vote to accept the found horses as I understand it. They are here and here to stay we can't turn back the clock. Nor should we try We will stay with all foundation horses except Misty. Her foal will be added to a new breeding program we are starting George Yes, and no. If one is looking at the Kiger as a type, then gathering horses from all areas was appropriate. While Utah was probably a bit of a stretch, there are Sulphurs that have the same type (phenotypic and genotypic) as the Kigers. And while Nevada seems to be a strange place for additional horses, the HMA from where the KMA kigers from NV came from is just across the stateline border from Beatty Butte (the original finding place of the Kiger). The distance between this HMA and Beatty Butte is not impossible to be traversed by a horse. I do believe the BLM saw the Kiger as a type and not as a set breed in the 1980s. They offered "Kiger-Type" adoptions featuring horses from other HMA. They transfered Kigers into other HMAs to "increase the number of dun-factor spanish type horses that could be brought back into the HMA". They released horses into Kiger/Riddle/SmythCreek for many years after the original 27 from Beatty Butte that came from other HMAs. According to the KMA minutes, there was no rules established to limit the introduced horses to Oregon HMAs, or even specific Oregon HMAs, or even limit the breeding of Found to Found. Unfortunately, the KMA never went back and followed up with the requirement that the Found horse had to prove itself by producing 3/5 foals. Jillian |
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Post by kimk on Jan 18, 2009 0:49:39 GMT -5
Michelle,
The grey studs were placed on Kiger HMA from other HMA's and then removed after BLM realised they were not "claybank" but grey.
Nancy,
I agree with your observation regarding the adoptions and quality. Even in 1999 I saw a huge difference in quality. More uniformity, but less quality and fewer standout individuals than adoptions previous to that.
I don't know about the percentage thing regarding full/partial blood, but something along those lines may very well be implemented in the future.
Jillian,
Good point about the concept of an open studbook in the beginning of nearly every breed. Keep in mind that they also caused controversy. The arabian people look down on horses with Skowronek as being unpure, then there is AQHA vs. FQHA, the original Appy folks in an uproar about the infusion of QH and TB blood, etc etc.
We certainly do not hold exclusive membership in that club!!
One thing I have always said, is if you do not like the way it is done now, then get involved and help to change it for the better!
I really don't think people have a legitimate complaint about any oranization if they are not willing to stand up for thier beliefs and get involved to help make it better. Heck, I've been banging my head against the same brick wall for many years and am finally seeing some cracks in the mortar. LOL!
Kim
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Jan 18, 2009 9:00:27 GMT -5
So, the grey studs were found blood...that makes sense to me now. That would mean all of those horses that eventually grey have some amount of found blood.
My greybank mare, Madonna, was a very gorgeous horse and very sweet. Though she was an alpha, she never followed through with a threat or was outright aggressive with anyone. She had three fillies. The first is a purebred and can be pushy with other horses and have opinions, but not anymore than alot of mares I know. The next two were by Lustiano (Veiga bulllfighting lines) and they put themselves in a subordinate place to the alpha, then do all the dirty work and enjoy it. The pattern is to run the other horse and bite. Kind of a unique pattern, as most mares fancy kicking as their means of expression...I blew it off because number one, they are super sweet with people and have never shown an aggressive mood in that respect; and two, because the two being half Veiga, I just figured that is how they are.
Then I bred Desi, son of Madonna, and he had two fillies last year. Guess what they do....?? BOTH will run the other foals and bite. One is the alpha of the group, the other is at the low end and she will even do it to higher up foals at feeding time. The other foals don't take it too seriously, so I know it is not a really nasty thing, but it is still there. That is the main reason Desi is getting gelded next month.
The other two fillies I have by the Veiga out of different mares have none of those behaviors, they are actually pretty passive and get along well with everyone.
I have to say, with the six foals Madonna had, she did not really breed true as each is very different. This is also a perfect example of how to waste time and horseflesh on breeding the "wrong" thing. It had to go two generations to put the pieces together.
So, even though they did pull those grey studs off, there is obviously residual blood out there, as proof in the grey coloring. What about the horses that did not grey - it can never be known how much found blood is still out there. I think this is pretty much a mute point at this time. We have what we have and there is no real way to tell. The blood that is known to be found though, should be being bred out in my opinion. If I did not already decide to geld Desi before this, after this I sure would be.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Jan 18, 2009 9:37:01 GMT -5
There are alot of things here to be considered, and as usual, there is no easy answer. What about a registry with a closed studbook? Or only allowing new Foundation horses on a very strict criteria...then making sure that the found blood that is known is being bred out and educating breeders to learn how to choose breeding stock.
The things like the information on the grey, needs to be available for everyone so that educated decisions can be made. Breeding is tough enough without having to go down potholed roads that are not neccesary.
Jillian, which horses on your list of found were the "claybank" stallions?
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Post by barbhorses on Jan 18, 2009 12:12:25 GMT -5
Who are these Sulphurs? I have never seen a Sulphur that looks like a Kiger. So I am very interested. Are you taking about the D1 and D3 mtDNA pattern? The Sulphurs have a genetic mutation (due to their isolation) that is not present in any other breed of horse according to Dr. Cothran. So, I am highly doubting that the Kiger also displays the Sulphur genetics. You are gonna have to back that comment up with facts Jillian. To me, Kigers and Sulphurs are like apples and oranges. Kigers usually look much courser and stockier than a Sulphur. Which type of Sulphur are you talking about? The horses way down south on the HMA look nothing like the horses way up north. The horses south of Mountain Home that are close to the Nevada border also look very different from the horses that are found east of Mountain Home Peak (which by the way is the prime area to find Iberian horses). Are you saying Kigers look like Santiago (who is Iberian):   Or maybe Chief who is considered non Iberian(he displays some influence, but certainly NOT found east of Mountain Home Peak):  Or Sulphur's Sioux Socks ( Sulphur's Chance x Sulphur's Barb)  These horses (even the non Iberian) do not look like Kigers. So, what Sulphur are you talking about? The only reason I can think of that the KMA would have included Sulphurs is because the Sulphur has incredible dun factor. Such as this colt here is displaying(Mestene's Pueblo x Wars with Thunder Felicia):  |
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Post by karismakigers on Jan 18, 2009 12:34:03 GMT -5
Jillian, which horses on your list of found were the "claybank" stallions? I think there is some misinterpretation. There are two ways to view the Found horse issue. All Kigers are found, as only 7 horses in 1976 were found in Riddle while clearing that HMA. www.kigerhorse.org/early_kigers.php Another 27 were found in Beatty Butte in 1976/77. Then several horses were added from various HMAs: South Steens, Sheepshead, Palomino Butte, etc. This was done by the BLM. Then, enter the formation of KMA. Additional Kiger-like horses were being found, and KMA voted to allow these horses into the KMA studbook. Some people feel that the horses BLM added were appropriate and are not to be considered found, that only those brought in later by KMA members are to be considered found. None of the horses brought in by KMA members were grey. Grey came in through BLM. Only a few horses added to the HMAs by BLM were grey. BLM documentation was changed later to show that 2 of the original Beatty Butte 27 were grey and not claybank as originally noted. I'll have to check the paperwork, but I believe those two were mares. Later, additional claybanks were added as they were found....some were true claybank (pale dunskin) while others were grey-duns. Record keeping in the early years were not the best.....they didn't even freezebrand most of the horses until much later. Jillian |
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Post by DianneC on Jan 18, 2009 13:02:10 GMT -5
I think George nailed it on the head. Its really just a matter of giving full disclosure. It may or may not matter to a buyer but they should know before they put their money down rather than finding out afterward.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Jan 18, 2009 13:25:06 GMT -5
I just have to laugh when I see it written that the Kigers are more coarser and stockier.... ;D
I will give you that the Riddle herd seems to produce a "heavier" type of horse (though I would not say more so than the first horse you posted...or the second), but as far as the Kiger herd, for the most part they resemble the 2nd dun horse you have posted there in the roundpen, as far as "heavy" goes.
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Post by lindad on Jan 18, 2009 14:03:08 GMT -5
I personally do not fault the BLM or the KMA for adding found horses from neighboring HMAs in the beginning. It is my understanding that the original horses that started the Kiger breed were from the same group and it was their uniformity of type within that original herd that made them desirable as "Spanish type horses" and then a few more horses were added from nearby HMAs that had the same characteristics and were placed on the Kiger/Riddle HMA's. The "found horses" were never on the Kiger/Riddle HMA just gathered from where ever, even far outside of Oregon and adopted to KMA people who did not differentiate them from the original Kigers. Some went so far as to have records falsified as to the origin of their found horses. So if it didn't matter why would one go to those lenghts? The part that has caused the rift is not so much that outside blood was introduced (that part makes sense to me) but that some of the found blood owners and the KMA did not designate them as such and sold them and their offspring as orignal blood. Many people that thought that they were buying original Kigers later discovered that they had found blood or partial Kiger horses. To some people it does make a difference, and they are entitled to know that information up front without having to research it on their own. It was very difficult to do as records were not readily available. It still is difficult if you don't know that there is a found horse issue or that you have numerous registries with varying criteria to research. Newcomers would not even know to ask these questions, and later found out that they had not bought what they intended. Lost credibility.....Ya think!!!!!
Perhaps, some of us believe a legend or even a "fairy tale" when it comes to the reported special qualities of those original horses, but that is what some are willing to pay for. I know some of the found horses, and they too are wonderful. I do not consider found Kigers to be inferior to original blood Kigers, they just were not part of the original group of Kigers and should be designated as such so the buyer can decide what they want for their intended purposes.
IMO, KMA blew it several years ago when the monster thread hashed this topic to death, because they would not distinquish between the two and simply designate original/found so the buyer could decide. If they had agreed to just designate original Kiger/found Kiger I believe that many if not most Kiger people would have moved on in this area. The found Kigers are here to stay. The question was and is how to handle it. We now have so many registeries that have tried valiantly to remedy the situation that we had diluted our influence as a group. Newcomers are nieve to all that has gone on before to try to unite the effort. It seems so simple when one is blissfully ignorant of the history of the breed. And it should be that simple. As agroup we must appear as idiots to still be stuck at the same place all of these years later.
It was determined about 3 or 4 years ago, during the "Monster Thread" that 1/3 of KMA registered horses had found blood and some offspring were 100% because found were bred to found with no original Kiger blood. Some were sold without differentiating original from found and people were deceived. Yes the found horses are now dying off, but their get continue to breed, and that is a lot of horses, and people still have to laboriously research KMA records to determine percentages of found blood, if the seller is not forthcoming.
If honesty had prevailed this would not be an issue, at least not to the extent that it is. Many people left the breed, because of the questionable practices, and the contentious and even hateful behavior and devisiveness that it caused. It has been so devisive that the breed has not flourished, because the people won't fix it.
My purpose here is not to pick at old wounds and shoot more slings and arrows, but to let people get an vague idea of the stumbing blocks that have prevented Kiger people from proceding with the obvious. What I see that is different at this point in time is that people are just looking at the next logical step, not the past barricades of opinions. Kudos.
Linda D
Linda D
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Post by karismakigers on Jan 18, 2009 14:09:03 GMT -5
Who are these Sulphurs? I have never seen a Sulphur that looks like a Kiger. So I am very interested. Are you taking about the D1 and D3 mtDNA pattern? The Sulphurs have a genetic mutation (due to their isolation) that is not present in any other breed of horse according to Dr. Cothran. So, I am highly doubting that the Kiger also displays the Sulphur genetics. You are gonna have to back that comment up with facts Jillian. To me, Kigers and Sulphurs are like apples and oranges. Kigers usually look much courser and stockier than a Sulphur. Which type of Sulphur are you talking about? The horses way down south on the HMA look nothing like the horses way up north. The horses south of Mountain Home that are close to the Nevada border also look very different from the horses that are found east of Mountain Home Peak (which by the way is the prime area to find Iberian horses). I guess I'll have to go resurrect my old harddrive. First, I don't want to take this conversation off on a Sulphur tangent as we are discussion Kigers. However, if we need to discuss Sulphurs on a Kiger board, then I'll let Michelle start the discussion. But I will rebut some of your comments. Second, Kigers do share the D cluster with Sulphurs. I also believe they share the Ddelk loci as well. Third, the unique genetic mutation that you speak of is in the Est system (serum esterase). That data is based on 1995 study. In the scientific world, anything older than 5 years is outdated. I have written Dr. Cothran today to see if he knows if this mutation in the Est system has been found in any other horse populations since the discovery 14 years ago. Fourth, I stated "there are Sulphurs that have the same type (phenotypic and genotypic) as the Kigers. ". I did not state all Sulphurs. There are certainly Sulphurs out there that look like Kigers and then there are Sulphurs that have drafty heads, shorter legs on deep bodies, round bone with no definition of tendons and wide front ends. Fifth, each breed (Sulphur and Kiger) have their off types. However, looking at the last three kiger adoptions, I see more consistency in the Kiger herds than in the sulphur herd (at the last gathering). I do hope that someone photographs ALL the horses at this current Sulphur roundup and not just the iberian looking horses. It certainly is convenient to dismiss the non-Iberian Sulphurs by saying they are from a different part of the HMA. Jillian |
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Post by kimk on Jan 18, 2009 14:15:56 GMT -5
Michelle,
you echo my thoughts exactly!!
I actually owned a Kiger mare gathered in 1996 from Kiger HMA who was featured in Hardy Oelke's book. Her mtDNA was identical to that of the sulphurs, according to Dr. Cothran. I culled her from my breeding program because of her coarsness. Although she was a wonderful riding horse and had a great temperament, the second foal she had for me had her coarsness, and it wasn't what I was looking for. Suphurs and Kigers are actually more similar than "barbhorses" wants to admit.
Linda,
I feel much the same as you, with the exception that the 3/5 foal rule was not followed ( it really boils down to the proof is in the pudding, doesn't it? ), and that several of these horses do not, no way no how look like a Kiger in thier conformation. I won't name names here as my intention is not to offend anyone, but I can count 3 mares just off the top of my head. KMA became way too focused on dun factor and not focused enough on conformation.
Kim
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Post by lindad on Jan 18, 2009 15:00:45 GMT -5
Please correct me if I am wrong! The mare Mestena bred to Steens Kiger was grey/claybank producing, Donner (aka Spirit of movie fame), Silverado (also grey/claybank) and Kiger Sundance, all of which have noteable histories and contributions of their own, and typify the Kiger mystique. Mestena and Steens Kiger were part of the very the first gathering/adoption from the Kiger/Riddle HMAs, therefore Mestena was not a "found" grey/claybank horse. Only Silverado to my knowlege (I may be wrong) produced greys and some beautiful ones at that! These were prized and highly sought after in the early days, before they were recognized to be grey. Kiger Flashpoint, a Silverado colt has superb conformation.
To Barbhorses,
Methinks you haven't looked at Kigers with open eyes if you thinnk them course compared to Sulphurs. Yes, there are course Kigers. Every breed has low end horses. I've seen some Sulphurs I don't like, but I don't discount the breed becasue of a few individuals. I personally know a person who was part of the original KMA, who adopted a gorgeous silver grullo Sulpher stallion that was registered as a Kiger based on his appearance, but I can assure you he does NOT have the Kiger temperment and personality for which Kigers are so revered! Looks like a Kiger, but does not act like a Kiger! I think Sulphurs are great but so are Kigers and then some! Perhaps his personality is not typical of the Sulphur breed. I hope not.
Have you ever compared that first Sulphur horse to Chinook Canyon? I think that you need to look further. Sulphurs and Kigers are just different, but do share some commonalities, one not necessarily better than the other.
Kim,
I agree if 3/5 had been adhered to, conformation was primary and place of origin had honestly been denoted, this discussion would be about much more productive things! Only one of these can be changed at this late date. The others can be part of the Kigers future.
Linda D
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Post by canadiankigers on Jan 18, 2009 15:50:34 GMT -5
Linda:
All our mare bloodlines go back to Silverado and Steens Kiger.
Purebreds
1. Bit O Honey (Silverado Gr daughter) is Dun, her first foal is grulla (who produced a grullo colt), her second is 2008 dun colt.
2. Ginger (Silverado Gr Daughter) was a red dun and her only foal is a red dun colt.
3. Sierra Myst a grulla (Charro X Quail) Expecting 2009 foal from Casper a Silverado son.
4. Honey Shasta a dun (Kiger of Mount Shasta out of Kiger Honey) due to foal a silverado gr son this spring.
5. Sweet Apparition a dun (Honey Shasta X Casper) Lost a dun filly and is presently open.
Partial Bloods
1. Saleen Born black & slowly shed out to grey.
2. Her foal Maid N Canada was born bay and shed out to an off white. She has not been bred.
Both the partial blood mares go back to Silverado and Dakota, a Paisley mare.
I cannot believe that Mestena was "found" because she was grey. (please correct me if I have misunderstood you.) I do not have any documentation stating that the original "claybanks" were pulled once it was discovered they were actually grey so I cannot give you an educated responce. What I have been told is that one of the original BLM people saw a mare that looked as if she had rolled in in clay and that is how the name came to be used but again that is just rumor passed down the line so to speak.
I do know that as one who was decieved, I was furious when I discovered that Saleen was not pure Kiger. I had her advertised as such publically on the CKMR web site and when I discovered the truth I had to retract that statement and reveal the truth. It really ticked off a lot of people and made the CKMR look as if they had no credibility. I just thank God that we had not sold her or her foal as we would have had to recatagorize her papers. NOT a good start for a new registry or breeder. As the only Kiger operation in Canada, we have the responsibility of setting the standard and finding uot we were unknowingly promoting a partial blood as pure is NOT the best way to prove ones self in the public eye.
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Post by DianneC on Jan 18, 2009 20:16:30 GMT -5
There were claybanks in the original 27 and the BLM was very proud of them, called them their pumkin horses because they turned orange in winter. I'm not sure if they were a light, light dun or grey. But if they were light, light dun why don't we see this color today? Even apricot dun, the lightest red dun, is darker than what they describe.
Who said they were realize now that they were really grey, was that someone like Ron Harding? Anyway, Mestena was captured long ago. I don't think Donner was out of Mestena, but another mare.
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Post by barbhorses on Jan 18, 2009 20:50:52 GMT -5
It isn't convenient Jillian. It is fact. If you would like more information about this fact then contact Chad Hunter who is responsible for the Sulphur gather. The BLM did NOT set up the Sulphur HMA with the same concept as the Kiger and Riddle HMA. It has been known for decades by Mustangers and people near the Mountain Home Range before the BLM ever had to manage horses that the Mountain Home range has Iberian horses. I can already tell you what will be at the adoption. They gathered about 60 head from the far south (which should get their own designated HMA as they look nothing like a Sulphur), they gathered many horses ( I dont remember the number) near the Nevada border and about 200 head of horses east of Mountain Home Peak. Which is the best place to find Iberian horses. The returned many of the nice Iberian type horses. So, you will have the Iberian horses that we want to preserve, the mixed bred horses, and the chunky draft horses. All under the name of "Sulphur". Confusing isn't it?
I can tell you all about Sulphurs as that is my chosen breed. Just like you can educate me on the Kigers.
As far as the grulla goes. Notice the shadowing (which enhances his features), the camara is at a very low angle so you cannot see the profile of his croup. So, you see a horse that appears to have a flat croup (he has a round sacrum whose pin bone is very even with the base of the tail. Exactly what you want to see in an old Spanish horse) and he doesn't have defined muscle.
I am sorry, but Sioux Socks looks nothing like a Kiger save his dun color. MANY horses have the D1 and D3 Iberian/Barb mtDNA pattern. That pattern is nothing special and is certainly not exclusive to any breed. The genetic mutation I speak of is not present in over 200,000 horses tested. This was published in 1997. Dr. Cothran writes, "There is also one variant in the Est system that may be a mutation that occurred in the population since it has been wild. We have listed this variant as Est-G* in Table 1. We have never observed this variant in any other non-Sulphur horse and we have tested over 140 other populations and over 200,000 individuals. "
Can you put pictures, side by side comparing a true Spanish Sulphur next to a Kiger?
personally, I like a nice stocky horse when it is on the right horse. Like that one stallion that is owned by Ron Cheney. Very nice looking stocky animal. Nothing wrong with that. He is a good looking horse.
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