Spanish horse movement/conformation

[DianneC]

This guy is pretty interesting, what do you think of his piaffe?
www.villadoretiro.com/ingl/plantel.php?pag=slider/videos&links=menug&nome=velasquez&video=video_01&voltar=4

[Michelle Clarke]

Nice horse...I think he has a lot of potential to do really well. His shoulders are super locked up, especially laterally. The piaffe is a really good start, he does not have the strength behind yet to drop down but the cadence is great. Interesting when you see the last still shot on the video, he has that dropped drive in the hind but it was not even hinted at under saddle; so the potential is there for him to really drive forward. Would be neat to see him in a couple years with some roundess training.

[DianneC]

I wasn't keen on the cremello, too stocky, but I thought this grey guy was pretty neat, and so shiny, wonder if he carries the pearl gene. Yeah, he was having some trouble with the cross overs in the lateral moves but I liked his conformation. Looks like a pretty good training program, wonder if they do any body work.

[sbutter]

How about this Piaffe?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAGfqnSWeYw&feature=related

Ok, here are some kiger backs for comparison. These were all on as level ground as I could find.
#1

#2

#3

#4

#5

#6

#7

[Michelle Clarke]

While I know that is the Nuno...the horse is very tense and stiff, that is why the tail is out and flipping around. This may be a young horse or a horse being reschooled OR it could have been at the end of his career when he was seeing how far he could get with a horse as quickly as he could. He had three year old doing very advanced work.

Okay...this horse needs to be more settled but his hindend is in a much better position than most I see. You can also see his front end lifting.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yAfxY6cutw&feature=related

[Michelle Clarke]

Good idea with the backs...firstly, these horses are obviously stressed. You see in front of the hip bones sunken in, most of the hind guts are sucked in and in some you can tell in front of the wither how the neck is dropped and pulled into the shoulder. This does affect the back and cause it to drop.

I hope more join in the conversation but here are my observations:

1) Head down and horse walking, looks like the inside hind leg is directly under the horse which would make his hip at the highest point of the stride here...maybe a little forward underneath. Depending on the natural head set; if the head and neck are carried up more, the back could drop. If the head/neck are carried more evenly, then the back would be more toward level. Overall, I don't think this is a too bad. I like the room under the flank for the stifle to come up into - this tells me when (and if) the horse can flex well in the hind end, then the rear legs have room to go up and forward.

2) Looks as if the top of the croup may be higher than the wither. If this were a horse four and under, I would not worry too much yet due to growth. The back does look a little weak to me as far as how it flows from the wither into the croup. If this were an adult I personally would not chose this one. The lumbar area especially looks weak. I don't like the relation between the point of the hip and the top of the croup - which looks way out there to me as far as too high. There is not going to be a lot of flexion in the sacrum - which cuts down your drive. This horse will push off when the leg is straight down - not reaching under itself and pulling forward. Also, not much room under the flank for the hind legs to come up into. Something else to notice with this horse is that the topline and the belly line are both long. You want the topline to be significantly longer than underneath. This gives you more ease of roundness and carrying power. This horse with an ill fitting saddle, incorrect riding, maybe a heavy rider, will have back issues later on.

3) I am hoping this one is young because I see some things I like - the topline is longer then underneath; the flank area is open for the stifle to move into; I like the hind legs set so squarely under the hip and it looks as if when the front leg is underneath the shoulder, the saddle would not ride too far foward and the girth would be in a good place so the front of the saddle does not pinch the shoulders. I would like to see a little more length on the topline. Even if this is a young horse, I do think the back will stay dipped. If the hip is going to stay that high, then the saddle will be pushed forward onto the shoulders. Do not dare put a straight tree on this horse - he needs a banana saddle and it better have rounded skirts to fit that short back. This horse as he stands, will be harder to get flexed in the hind end and driving foward, number one because of his back and number two because the top of the croup is close in relation to the point of the hip.

[Michelle Clarke]

4) I like this horses' back - nice solid build for a saddle. In a perfect world his croup would be a little lower. I like the top of the croup in relation to the point of the hip plus the angle of the sacrum plus there is room for the stifle under the flank - this horse should be able to flex and drive (once his gut gets in shape and out of the way a little!). I like the way the wither flows into the back. I would like to see a more closed angle in the hip and also with the shoulder and humerus - this would give more flex and lift in the joints. A little too straight also in the shoulder, ideally. So far this is the best one over all.

5) This looks like a typical QH back - big hip, flat back that slopes down into the wither, which will be a mutton wither with a little more flesh or muscle. Long distance between the top of the croup and point of hip - so not a lot of flexion. Appears this hind end will be happy trailing out behind. Good room for the stifle, but because of the angle and leg position, the stifle will most likely never get that high. The way the back is sloped down and the hip high and behind, the saddle will constantly be forward on this horse unless you get one just a little too small and pinch the shoulder. This will in turn, shorten the stride even more and drop the head to relieve pressure off of the rear of the shoulder blades. Viola! Your western horse deluxe and my guess is many folks tend to find this appealing because it is what is familiar.

6) Not bad...would like to see the top of the croup a little lower and further back for more flexion. If this is a young horse, he will most likely look better at maturity. Room for the stifle, good position of the front leg for the girth in relation to the shoulder and the angle of the shoulder will give you more lift in the front end. Overall, not bad and if this were a young horse I would most likely give it a chance in breeding. My only question would be the shoulder - it looks a little "smashed" - that maybe the angle of the photo or an injury such as a kick or running into something.

7) This one is the most appealing to me. The relation between the top of the croup and point of hip is perfect to what I personally like. It shows strength and flexion; I love the angle of the sacrum too. Lots of room for the stifle to come up. Front leg in great position for the saddle to sit nice without interfering with the shoulder. Like the way the neck comes out of the shoulder too. Love the length of the back and it is built strongly. If I were to guess, this is an older stallion who has spent a lot of time with his head up keeping watch - hence the dip behind the wither; it looks pinched or stressed over time. I think this horse would produce better than it appears here. From a breeding standpoint and from only the parts I could see, this is a nice Spanish breeding type.

[gotkiger]

ha ha i think we are all sitting back and taking notes and learning from you michelle. This is so informative more than i have ever received in talking to profesors or other breeders. I need to come visit you and just sit down and talk about all of this and pick your brain of all you knowledge. it is just so fascenating.

[gotkiger]

I had picturesof about 20 different kigers on flat ground and they were all relaxed but I lost them when my computer died... I am hoping to get it in and get the information off of it so i might be able to save the pictures.

ok so i know a lot of the conformation comes from the back and how those muscles are working or not working together. What about the neck? Will a horse that typically has a thicker neck, like Dollie, be able to have a different headset without locking her back as opposed to a horse with a thinner or pencil neck?

What should the headset be for a spanish type horse? you see these Luso's and Andi's coming in and their chin is basically on their chest should their head be up that high or shoufl it be more naturally hung out and their neck being elongated?

I am way out of shape and after a year off of riding so is dollie but I will try to get my husband out there to take a video of us so you can see how she moves (western and bareback pad and being lunged) and certique to your hearts desire as a "in Progress" video

[Michelle Clarke]

Neck position is very important in order for balance - which is what horses' use their heads and necks for. The Spanish horse tends to have his neck set high up on the shoulder coming up first instead of out like a Thoroughbred type. This allows the balance to be further back on the horse for upper level training and also better carrying power of the rider.

When a horse has his chin to his chest, it can be for many reasons. It is easy to do with this type of build. When a horse is falsely collected by just bringing the nose in and shortening the stride, the chin will come into the chest and the neck pull down into the shoulder. The back will dip and the hind end and legs will be more out behind the horse. This video is a perfect example of an Andalusian not round or collected correctly - just pulled in:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=S67Zv588-0A&feature=related

When you get to a higher level of collection, the head needs to be balanced over the neck but "hung" from the top ligament instead of held up by the underside. Notice in the above video how much front leg movement there is as far as up and down and not really forward and reaching. This is due to the underside of the neck being tight and pulling the top of the humerus upwards instead of being relaxed and rolling forward.

For comparison, this is a nicely trained gelding that is hanging his head and being balanced (most of the time) correctly. There is more shoulder movement rolling forward and you can see how that also allows his hind end to work properly underneath himself. Watch however, when the rider does pull in his head, how the hind flattens for a second as his back loses roundness (at 1:46). There are moments where the horse lifts his head some and his nose comes in front of the vertical and allows the front end to loosen up - the whole front end gets taller; unfortunately, the rider brings him right back in. It happens right before all the lead changes - which just shows the horse needs to be in the "correct" balance in order to make that change; not sure why they don't let him stay there.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z5m1bkW2lw&feature=related

Did I go off on a tangent here...??

A longer neck is harder to get the center of gravity back and get the roundess correct and the weight off the front end. A longer neck is usually associated with a longer back also - remember for balance...

I was looking for a thinner necked horse in a dressage video and came across this. Now, I do realize this is a beginner trying to "play dressage" on her western horse but it is a good example of this poor horse literally being put in a position he is not built for. Not only does he get pulled behind the vertical but he is not in shape for any kind of frame. Watch how his hip sashays side to side instead of coming up and forward. His back is very locked up and he could not get round even if his rider knew how to get it done.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmemROlEHJU

When first starting any early training, the horses neck should be elongated and out, no matter what the breed or type of riding. Many folks may not ever really get past this point, which is fine.

The Vaqueros had nice correct training styles too. You can see in this video, the horse is limited by his own conformation but the neck and head is at a position that allows the horse to be nice and round, working off his hind end.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J4soS_kCTg

Here is a gal that is getting some nice stuff done. I've seen her in person and she has a lot of good things going on, especially for more lower level riders, I think her program is nice and gives people and horses a balanced place to be. The only disappointment I had was when she pulled the saddle off, the horse had no topline whatsoever, so maybe there was another factor or maybe something is missing. I don't know her program all the way through so I can't say. What I do like is her horses are all calm, forward and enjoying being ridden.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjoAaFZA7JI

I finally got my new video camera I just started trying to figure out, so there will be a lot of stuff coming down the pike to help explain all of this more and to give lots of examples.

[Michelle Clarke]

For comparison...here is a pict of the older mare I got at the adoption:

[Michelle Clarke]

Here is super example of a three year old filly, up hill movement, drive, reach, lift - she's got it all!

vimeo.com/33968716

[Michelle Clarke]

[gotkiger]

wow she can move

[gotkiger]

makes me kinda feel like I have crap... but I love my crap