Head position and collection

[DianneC]

What do you think of training that wants to have the head below the withers? I recently talked to someone about this, they said it was important for collection.
I think if the horse is properly conditioned, it can be in self-carriage and will be collected with its head in a more natural position. I looked at pictures of Reina and that is exactly what I mean. Soft and round, head lower, but not below the withers. I know when Chinook was in training he hated the left right left right to lower his head. He wasn't in condition then so maybe it was just hard for him. Once he was in different training he got conditioned and no one was asking him to drop his head.

[pepper]

I've never read ,heard or been taught anything about a relationship between the horses' head position & their withers having anything to do with "collection"?Collection always comes from behind so,yes,being in condition does make self carrige easier.
Is this something you heard from a western pleasure trainer?They tend to focus on a "head-set " more than true collection..at least so I've heard.

[Michelle Clarke]

Sounds like you know the answer! They've got to be fit for collection and the right kind of fit. The head and neck are for balance so as soon as they start to use the hind end more affectively, round their back and carry more weight on the haunches, they will put their head in a more correct position. Well, the head always goes in the correct position for that moment reflecting where the horse is in his natural balance. The quickest way to find out where a horse is in his training is to let his head go!

There is a school of thought that believes in order for a horse to have proper collection, the head first needs to be low. This is easily misconstrued by those who read it somewhere without having working knowledge. For years, I learned from a Classical trainer how to teach my horses roundness (sidenote: you can have roundess without collection and collection without roundness - the goal is to have both). In order to get the horses back loose and be "round" they are taught to get the hind legs reaching further underneath the horse, ) and consequently, the neck lowers and the head drops for balance. This is Solana first learning to reach forward:



Rev is very extreme in his roundness with this - I'll have to get some pictures this week of him - he looks like a ball trotting around. Here is one of him in 2007, not really in shape but more roundess than Solana had:



With that said - I have ruined horses with this method by staying there too long and too extreme. This is very useful for high-headed horses that drop their backs and/or don't focus. It gets them relaxed, cadenced and focused. I still use this method but I don't stay there long and some horses I don't even do it at all. On the down side, it puts them on the forehand and shortens the stride by leaving them in this position too long. What is too long? Different for every horse. I find the Iberian/Spanish type horses should not do this much or at all, again, depending on the horse. I found with Rev, I actually went backwards in training with him and now spend much of my time lifting his neck and releasing the shoulders.

This method was not done with Reina at all. We work on her dropping her head with certain flexions of the neck and hind legs both in hand and under saddle. Laterals are magic for her. We then apply these when she gets stiff or tight; so it is used less and only when needed. We did not go about teaching her roundness first, as I did with some other horses like Rev. Gringo should probably never learn that exercise, as his trot gets choppy in the frontend all by himself when he gets out of balance. I am actually going to teach him some cavelletti so he can learn to balance with his head lower but still pick those legs up. I hesitate to teach him Spanish Walk early on so he does not use that against me as we train, but that would also be beneficial to him, as I've done with Rev to counter act too much roundness (which he now uses as an evasion of course!).

Bottom line - head below the withers puts them on the forehand. Can it be beneficial for training? Maybe in the right situation with the right horse for the right amount of time. For Collection? Depends on what your goal is and who that horse is at that time. Is it necessary in order to achieve collection? No - just ask any Baucherist or Phillipe Karl (who's methods I much admire!).

[sbutter]

This is interesting and love all the info here. It kind of reminds me of the saddle horse conformation thread. From what I have seen, it looks like different disciplines have ideas for headset and collection. I picture english disciplines with more elevation and western with lower. I don't know the specific biomechanics of why certain disciplines require what head level. The cutting horses seem to be lower in the front end, since they have to get down low to cut. I picture cutting like herding, and stallions or broodmares keep their heads low to push someone around. So maybe disciplines that have horses "pushing" something have found that a lower headset is more effective.

I personally like the look of a higher/rounder appearance compared to western pleasure. Are there any physical/ health negatives to a lower headset if the horse is relaxed and not forced to stay in that frame?

[Michelle Clarke]

Yes, I do think there is still some harm being done long term. People can be relaxed and slouched at the same time - does not help their posture in the long run either! Jamming of the shoulders, which leads to short striding and more stress on the joints; front feet problems such as seperation and even change in bones due to the stress. I truly believe this is one reason why so many QH's turn out to have navicular and other such feet problems. IMO, it is so prevalent, it is becoming genetic - the feet are adapting over generations to carry in the position.

Also, you'll have back problems because if you have the head/neck down without roundness, the back is dropped and the spine gets damaged. I have a lot of thoracic vertabrae that have kissing spines from the back being dropped. This is also why, I believe, you see a lot of sway backs in older QH types.

[mystickiger]

"With that said - I have ruined horses with this method by staying there too long and too extreme. This is very useful for high-headed horses that drop their backs and/or don't focus. It gets them relaxed, cadenced and focused. "

Interesting and truthful observation, Michelle. It's funny, when I first began hauling in for lessons my trainer suggested allowing Mystic to stretch low as it was a good release and stretch for tension. Knowing my mare, I thought " aww I don't think so but okay". Long story short it was a very short time before I moved her there to board and ride with an occasional lesson. She quickly decided after watching her at liberty that nope she was not a horse that should be encouraged to travel in hand or under saddle with frequency this way, an occasional break, yes but it could soon become an evasion. What she realized was the "aww" part I knew but didn't know how to put into perspective. The picture of Rev is a natural way of trotting around the pasture or free lunging for Mystic. I have often said she looks like a stallion trotting around in the pasture. I don't often see other mares and geldings in that position. Allow that undersaddle, at least with me as the rider, you have a horse that cheats the picture and is really on the forehand. This was a hard concept for me to understand although I knew it was happening; if that makes any since. Compact, round horses have their own set of difficulties! Some what along the same lines is the walk. I now understand why it is often said that the walk is the truest gait and the most difficult to teach while being the easiest to ruin. I can tell you for sure it would be very difficult to ruin my horse's free walk but now have a good understanding of how easy it could be for many horses. I do think most Kigers are blessed with a great free walk.

Sarah, I totally agree with Michelle's theory of the jamming of the shoulders, putting on the forehand, the stress to joints and consequentially feet in the modern day QH. IMHO it has and continues to become genetic due to breeding for use. My farrier who travels the country teaching and speaking is convince of this too. While he wasn't originally thrilled about me getting a "mustang" he immediately loved her ( and Finn too!) for the natural, balanced ample foot he had to work with. His comment was " this horse hasn't had the foot bred out of her like most of the domestic breeds. Hopefully, they (take that to mean breeders and BLM) won't breed the foot out of them." Interesting and true especially when you consider there are some bad feet out there among the wild stock that are being domestically bred for color.

Dianne, I don't doubt that Chinny hated the left right, left right see sawing to get his head lower. Easy to want to resort to that out of frustration but really not something you want your horse doing. Condition is the key as you know. I would have no problem telling any trainer that rode my horse that. Everything has it's use and place in moderation I guess but if I ever saw that I would question and stop it immediately. Of course, my mare would probably take care of that herself, LOL. Got to love the acceptance of the males!

Karen

Karen

[sbutter]

That was a good analogy using people and posture. That does make a lot of sense regarding stress on joints. It also helps seeing hundreds of horses and what kind of training they have had. You definitely start to notice patterns. Thanks for taking the time to write all this up Michelle and Karen.

[sbutter]

This is the kind of headset that I like to see and I wish more western horses were like. The head can be low at times, but the poll is never below the withers. Vaquero Bridle Horse-

www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFPmKChNrhU